Yeh read a few years ago that lennox lewis said he thinks that gloves just made it so you took more shots to the head. He also was very much against head gear. I think at that time there was a big issue with safety (i know there always is) but people were saying that proboxers should fight with head gear on. Lewis said that wouldnt help, all it would mean is that a fighter would be taking more blows to the head. Im sure other fighters think this aswell.
Did anyone else notice the similarities to MMA? Cautious fighters, big distance that often closes straight to the clinch and a general reluctance to just stand and trade strikes.
It is a little like MMA. Also the rules allow for differences, no judges so if you fall down alot to escape injury or something like that its not counted against you. Also you can throw and do some jointlocks which are allowed in the rules. Its rough stuff.
While the English wear ribbons and bells whilst skipping Never heard of Lethwei before. Is it just a tournament or a specific style? Been an informative thread though.
Wow ! Slip, there are many sides to the story. There are many things that you pointed out are true, but many are not so. Let's discuss Cambodia. I've traveled extensively by bicycle from Laos border, to Stung Treng the most northern city of Cambodia, down to Kampong Cham, then to Siem Reap. Back to Pnompenh, then south to Sihanouk Ville ( Kampong Som), and finally to Koh Kong. I traveled the back road, and not the high ways, so I passed many villages, and talked with several local people. I found the Cambodians very similar to Thais, in term of life style and culture. They hold no grudge against Thai people. In fact, I feel that Cambodians in general love Thais like you do your neighbour. You can talk about Thai adopting Cambodian's culture. It's true. But it's also Thais that preserved these culture and help revived them back to Cambodia when it's royal arts such as dances etc were destroyed by internal turmoils. There are conflicts among Thais and Cambodia. When ever the Cambodian government has local problem, they divert people's attention by spreading any rumour just to lessen the importance of the internal problem. There was a riot in Pnompenh just a few years back because the Cambodian prime minister quoted that a popular Thai actress bad mouthed Cambodia. Most Cambodians only knew the incident as a small misunderstanding, with no major consequence. However, the Thai Embassy was burned down, and Thai medias being more extensive, led Thais all over the country to believe that Cambodians hate Thais. I've been doing my best to dispell that belief. So you see, misunderstanding can be easily spawned. Thais are well aware that former khmer rouge would cross over the border to rob and steal cars on Thai side. But really, that is a very small sector of Cambodians who live along Thai border, in what the Cambodians refer to as economical zone. This is where you have all the bad people like gold mines in the west in the days of old. Most Thais do not know, and think that Cambodians are still war mongers. I know differently. You must take the people of the country as a whole, and not judge just a small secment. I don't think the Thai military coerce with Khmer Rouge. Thai military were supported by American government, and probably dropped several genocide chemical bombs thru American dictation. Regarding Burma, what Slip said may be true 30 years ago. But Thais are begining to realize that it was also Thais fault that alowed Burmese to ransack the ancient capital. It was our dis-unity that caused the down fall. I feel that Thais' hate for Burma has subsided. I'd say the situation is similar to the Brits and the French. It's true that Thai military deals with small factions in Burma, but it's the military and not Thai people. BTW Burma is badly decaying, and that is because of it's own military government doing, and also because the British left the country in disarray, when they hastily gave up their imperialism.
Another good post sportmuay,i dont understand the subject matter enough to take part in any discusion,but find it enlightening reading,thanks guys
I beg to differ. I've spent many years in both countries and have dealt with many people. I've posted based on my experience with both Thai nationals and Cambodian nationals. Interesting. Yes, bicycle trips through Cambodia are quite popular. Of course they are similar - they essentially come from much of the same ethnic stock. Much of current Thai culture is based on what was dispersed from the Khmer Empire. I personally found many Khmers who did hold a grudge against Thai's. There were many, many issues involved. Not the least of which being trade relations or the actions of the Thai military during the Khmer Rouge genocide. Much of the dealings between the Khmer Rouge and the Thai military is well documented. Much of it is centered arournd financial gain to the detriment of the Khmer people. While I think the Camodians in general acknowledge that there are strong cultural links between Thai's and Khmer's I don't think that it means they neccessarily love their neighbor. If we were to use the US and example... I don't really think we could say they love their neighbor to the south... Mexico. The problems between the US and Mexico bear many parrallels to the problems between Thailand and Cambodia. Sorry but that's hardly a justification for the pillaging the Khmer Empire. Without which Thailand would not have the Royal Court dancers that they do - that much of the world believes are Thai when in fact they came from what is today Cambodia. Yes, I agree there are some good things in the fact that Thailand has been traditionally more stable than Cambodia in the modern era... yes it has meant that many things can now be transmitted back to where they came from in the first place. Again - there are issues of genuine conflict between Thai's and Cambodian. Several of which I've listed above. I think much of the reason that things escalated as far as they did is there is a feeling of resentment towards the Thai's by Cambodians. I don't know that it's the prevailing attitude... but I think Cambodians probably get a bit tired of the Thai's trumpeting appropriated cultural practices as orginally Thai when many of them are in fact originally Khmer. I think that however it's not terribly hard to whip up a mob mentality in place like Cambodia - and the once there is mob momentum built up... it's not all that hard to find a focal point for it. In this case... the Thai embassy. I can understand why there is no point in further whipping up tensions between the two countries. However there are issues at the ground level that give rise to these tensions. So it probably far better to dispel any unfounded beliefs by actually stating the situation as it exists - and that inlcudes stating issues and perceived problems by both sides. I think if more people took the time to actually read the history of these areas in SE Asia instead of just by the slick advertising done by the Thai tourist bureau there might actually be less problems and misunderstanding spawned. Ok, by your own admission here is just one problem along the border. Another would be the complicit support for the Khmer Rouge by Thai authorities during the genocide. There really are more issues than just this but this is one that leads to many hard set attituded when dealing with the issues. There have been many transgressions on both sides of the border by both factions. It doesn't really matter that there are only a small amount of people currently living there. Again the real issue, historically speaking, has been one of the Thai military support for the Khmer Rouge by refusing to reign them in along the border region and allowing travel and trade by them when it supported the Thai financial interests. Many Khmers are well aware of this... I find that many Thai's either don't know about it... or don't care because for them it's not an injustice that directly affects them. Yes. Agreed. Border areas usually are infamous for the kinds of crime they attract and the Khmer/Thai border is no exception. Both sides bear a responsibility for the problems. As you get into the provinces that border Cambodia without actually crossing the border - the crime has traditionally been much higher in these provinces. Many Thai's know this and will let you know there have traditionally been lots of lawlessness and gun crime in areas that border Cambodia. Time I've spent in places like Buriram, Surin and Prachin Buri have made me seen why. It's only recently that the Thai government began to crack down on firearms. I can still remember plenty of bars and discos where one had to check their firearms in a box at the door of the club before being allowed to enter. I think you really can't judge it by a the country as a whole because there are a rather large part of the Khmer people that have little to no interaction with Thai people. So they base their beliefs (right or wrong) on anecdotal information that they hear. I think you need to do some more reading on the relations between Thailand and Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge era. I will pull together a list of citations and book titles that will cover this little know history if you're interested. The Thai military is hardly a new comer to corruption and coercion. Most Thai's may not believe this... but they are spoon fed Thai nationalism from day one in the schools in Thailand so that's not suprising. It's perhaps a regrettable but neccessary part of modern nation building. Here are some articles that are of interest: http://www.american.edu/TED/camwood.htm http://research.yale.edu/ycias/database/files/GS21.pdf (here is nice piece of academic work that shows the complicity of the Thai authorities with the Khmer rouge... in facts it's written by the noted Thai professor Dr. Puangthong Rungswasdisab for the Yale Genocide Studies Program) I sincerely wonder how many Thai's you deal with on a daily basis. Speaking with plenty of Thai people the general consensus I've always found was that they were rather vocal about how bad the Burmese were. Again - the Thai's have no qualms about using them as cheap labor when it suits them and then cracking down illegal labor immigration when it doesn't suit them. You can go by many building sites in N. Thailand and they'll staffed primarily by Burmese labor - who essentially have no rights in Thailand. Yes but much in the same way that the Brit's and French hold a rather low opinion of each other - the Thai and the Burmese do the same. Much of this comes down to far right nationalist propaganda from Thailand against the Burmese much of which as relatively recently shown to be not exactly historically accurate. Again - another byproduct of nation building. Agreed. The ruling military junta in Burma the moment cares for little more than lining their own pockets. But the Thai's are not about to step up and say anything... after all it's primarily the military that runs Thailand - so they're not going to set any examples that may lead to their own downfall are they. On a final note here... I don't think that all Thai people hate Khmer people or visa versa... I do however believe there are real issue that underly many of the misunderstanding that governments of both sides use when it suits their advantage. I've got a lot of respect for both Thai's and Khmers and I've find it as fascinating now as I did when I first arrived in Thailand fifteen years ago. Always good to have other viewpoints on these sorts of topics. Another point of interest is that many modern day Thai's refer to the current Cambodian people as 'khmen'... and they hold a very different distinction for the people of the ancient Khmer empire as 'khom'. The Vietnamese also refer to Cambodians not as Khmer but as 'mien' meaning much the same as the Thai's usage of 'khmen'. Many Thai's that I've met hold 'Khmen' to practically be a dirty word. While they generally hold the 'khom' in a much, much higher regard. Which I always thought was a fair bit of insight into the average Thai persons view on Cambodian people. This issue is really quite tied up with modern day issues that have in effect carried over from ancient conflicts between the Thai's and Cambodians... any discussion of the problems of Thai/Cambodian conflict over Preah Vihear is not complete without delving into these issues. Much of the gist of the issue stems from the differing ideas about the Angkorian ruling class (Khmom) - originally thought to have been Brahman caste Indians being taken back to Thailand and essentially assimilated into Thai culture. Thus the remaining lower class Khmers (Khmen) being seen as an inferior people.
Dear Slip, we tend to believe what we like. I personally tend not to believe in the US government, and its evidences. Therefore, the reports you quoted are meaningless to me even though they may have been prepared by Thai scholars. Yet I like Americans in general. You used a very strong term, pillaging the Khmer Empire. Please remember that Khmer used to rule over Thailand. Many enslaved Thais were taken to build Angor Wat etc. Why don't I hear you bemoan that fact. It's because what had been done had been done, and you cannot change that, unless you have some inner motive behind it. I find it strange that you're pointing fingers at Thais for Khmer plights, while ignoring the Americans, the French, and the Khmer themselves. I assume that you have visited the grand palace and the temple of emeral buddha in Bangkok. Do you see obvious similarity with those in Pnompenh? I don't think that there would be any point in asking why they are that way except to treasure them as sharing similar heritage. I believe it's most important that Thais and Cambodians see their similarities, cherrish our heritage, and coexist, instead of being instigated. You don't like the fact that Burmese are working at low wages in Thailand, yet you complain about them being arrested and sent back to Burma. Malaysia also allow Thais to sneak in and then harass them and jail them, before sending Thai labourers back. It's about government 's policy at the time. I'm talking about the actual people. rulers come and pass away, but the people remain, and they shouldn't hold grudge. Incidentally, I've yet to see illegal burmese immigrants being treated like dirt on the street. I'd say most Thais don't really care if they are Burmese. To reply to your question about: I sincerely wonder how many Thai's you deal with on a daily basis. Speaking with plenty of Thai people the general consensus I've always found was that they were rather vocal about how bad the Burmese were. lol That is some thing i should ask of you. I'm a Thai. At Fairtex, almost every one knows me, even children. I'm directing manager of more than thirty employee. The building where my office is located is leased out to two more companies. I see my mom and my relatives very often. I also meet with my fellow cyclists about three times a week. I discuss politics all the time even when cycling in a large group. BTW i've traveled along Burmese border from Ranong up by motorcycle, and from Sangkhla Buri and MaeSod thru MaeSariang. Mae Hongson up to ChiangSaen by bicycle. I know several Karens. Infact, I have a Karen maid working for my wife in ChiangMai. So I believe I see many Thais and some minority ethenics. I admit that most Thais I mingle with have college degree or above, but I also listen to any people and are perceptive to their ideas. This is getting rather off topic, and i will refrain from further discussion on this thread about rivalry among Thai's neighbours. I see your points, Slip. However, we each give more and less weight differently.
Sigh. I didn't think I'd have to break it down like this... but apparently I will. The report from Dr. Puangthong Rungswasdisab is not from the American government. He is not now - nor has ever been under the employment of the American government. He is a research fellow at Research Fellow at Yale University. No where does that mean he tow's the American government line. If they are meaningless to you then I suggest you really haven't a clue as to what your actually talking about. Can you cite credible sources that can refute what Dr. Puangthong Rungswasdisab has stated? It's not a case of me believing what I want - it's a case of me having bothered to actually read credible academic histories related to the subject matter were discussing and being able to cite them to support my stance. You've haven't been able to do that. Both Dr. Puangthong Rungswasdisab from Yale and Thai historian Charnvit Kasetsiri, Senior Advisor to the Southeast Asia Studies Program at Thammasat University, Bangkok, Thailand are two very well know Thai historians that have top notch credentials on the subject... and they both concur on the subject that I've cited them in reference to. Can you really find anything that casts doubt on their findings? It's not a strong term. It's an accurate term. When you have a kingdom that ransacks the capitol of another kingdom and makes off with the entire Royal Court Dance Troupe.... that's pretty much counts as pillaging. Whether or not the Khmer's at one point enslaved Thai's or any other people doesn't change the fact that pillaging had taken place by the Thai's against the Khmers. Even if the Khmers had in turn pillaged the Thai's - that also does not change the fact of the matter does it? No. Becuase I chose to show an example of why may Khmers don't like Thai's. Again - try to understand what is being discussed here. I don't have an axe to grind one way or another on the issue. I simply find it fascinating. Simply because I didn't 'bemoan' the fact doesn't mean I've denied it... and it certainly doesn't change the fact that pillaging did take place. Again I think you're truly having trouble understanding where I'm coming from on this. I've stated in no uncertain terms that I haven't got an axe to grind one way or another. If we had been discussing Khmer attrocities while they rules over the Thai's I'm sure I could just as easily find credible material to cite. You haven't bothered to do that however. So if that's what you wish to discuss I'm more than happy to... in fact... much of it I am aware of already and could most likely provide you with some good sources... however you're attempting to polarize the issue when it doesn't need to be. Again - please read what's been posted and understand it in context. I am not claiming there are not other extenuating circumstances... but the gist of the discussion had to do with Khmer attitudes towards Thais... not with their attitudes towards the Americans, French of their own self image. Again if you want to discuss that I'm happy to. But don't try to put words into my mouth because you're not able to understand the context of what we're speaking about. I don't think discussing accurate history is instigation of hatred or ill feelings between Thai people and Khmer people. Without truly understanding history we are bound to repeat it. So I suggest that you stop being so dismissive of qualified Thai academics on the subject of Thai history and actually learn a bit of about it. You yourself stated you didn't believe that there was collusion between the Thai's and the Khmer Rouge... go back and read the report it discusses just that. It's not top secret knowledge... but it's not generally well known amongst even upper class educated Thai's. Let me clarify - what I'd seen happen in Thailand was that many Burmese were let into Thailand to work when Thai developers and contractors needed cheap labor. So this suited the Thai developers financially - however when it came time to actually pay up on many of the year end wages on such projects... the authorities would conveniently show up and deport the Burmese laborers with no pay. This is a very common exploitation tactic used around the world with immigrant labor forces. I find it reprehensible. Obviously I'm well aware of this as I've spent a good deal of time in the South - primarily in Yala and Songkhla. I don't doubt this for one minute. But I don't think that because this happens that it makes it any less reprehensible in design or any less relevant to the context of the conversation we're having. Of course it doesn't. Yes. In an ideal world. No group of people would hold a grudge against another group of people. But in the real world this happens all the time. Right, wrong or indifferent... it happens. The articles I've cited give some background as to why some of those grudges are held. Please try to understand that. err... did I ever say that they were? No. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I've never even implied such. Go back and read please. My reference to Burmese illegal immigrant workers in Thailand is focused on corrupt labor practices. Please don't try make it out like I've said something I haven't. That's fine - but simply by the fact of your nationality doesn't somehow entitle you to just simply disregard credible data on a subject were discussing. Very well. Then perhaps you can ask them about the credentials of the articles that I've cited and see if perhaps they can provide you with any credible information that refutes what I (and many others) believe to be historically accurate information. Seriously. Give it shot. I won't however be surprised if few to none of them are aware of such studies much less be able to come up with information that can refute what has been posted. Even a large majority of educated Thai's are not aware of much the finer points of Thai history. And before you accuse me of having some other axe to grind against Thai people... that applies to many other countries as well... yes even the Americans, the French and the Khmers. Then I'm sure you've no shortage of people to discuss the finer points of Thai history that I've pointed out in this thread. Fair enough. I would only ask that you perhaps move past your prejudice about Thai history and realize that the work being done by Thai scholars is top notch. They are not and haven't towed the American line. Their work is accurate and something that I would imagine to be of interest to Thai's.... however I've often found that many are not willing to look frankly at anything that puts them in a negative light... not matter what the circumstances. At any rate... I would be rather interested to see you refute what I've posted in a credible manner if you can. If you decide that it's not your cup of tea to respond in kind. Then so be it. No hard feelings from me.
Dear Slip, I'll give one last shot at replying to your post. I don't know what you're trying to get at, honestly. I feel that you're posting what you like , while conveniently neglecting others. I look at the total picture. I initially posted because you posted It comes down to Thailands relations with it's neighbors is less than stellar. The Khmer's of Cambodia often feel the same. They hate the Thai's with a passion - much like the Burmese You said "is less than stellar", so I assume you mean presently. This is to be expected. Countries sharing common boarder always have problem. Yet I feel that Thailand, Cambodia and Burma are getting along reasonably well. I was very surprised to hear Cambodian students telling me that Thai was the second most popular language next to English for their choice of study, in addition to Cambodian itself. Thai is taught at many schools through out Cambodia. When I cycled thru Cambodia, the minister of Economy came to greet my group at Cambodia border near Stungstreng, and he saw us leave Cambodia border into Thailand. Later, he flew into Bangkok to attend reception for completion of the trip. The trip was to promote Economic Co-operation of Burma, Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand. We demonstrated that there were roads linking Burma thru Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. We had Cambodian cyclists with us. Now, are we coexisting? The Thai's have a very dark history of this. They had all sorts of dealings with the Khmer rouge when they ran Cambodia into a genocidla hole... they have also dealt with many different factions in Burma - the military junta that runs the country now - the Wa State Army who runs most of the drug trade - The Shan Army - playing each of them off against the other when it suited them best financially. Cambodia had many factions. What Khmer Rouge did to it's people is internal matter. All factions were raping the country resources. The French left Indo China in disarray. Khmer rouge did not come into power because of Thailand. All the communists backed factions received support from its people, China and Vietnam because the American government set up its allied government. Thailand did not help originate Khmer rouge. During communist rule, the Americans bombed cambodia, without declaring war. Worst, they dropped chemical bombs known as yellow rain. If you talk about Thailand buying timber from KR, so did Japan from ruling Cambodian government and thru Thailand. Same for Burma. The present Burma also include kingdom of Mon and Shan, Wah as well as Karen clans. When the British gave independence, it did not give independence to each original kingdom, but hastily gave the package to Burma. That's why there is so much fighting for independence. How do you finance for the fight? you do any thing for the cause. BTW while you talked about Khom of Indian Bhraman origin not being common Cambodian, you opt to say that the court dance was Cambodian. And what about Burma ransacking the ancient Ayudhaya? Oh, Khamen is Thai pronounciation of Khmer. It's official Thai government word. It does not have degrading implication similar to the English calling Chinese "Chink". Khom is what Thai call ancient Cambodians. Like I said, there are many sides to the complexity of international relationship. You and I could keep on arguing endlessly from our perspective. I'm more interested in peaceful coexistance, while you're interested in digging into shallow pockets of misdeeds. This is my last response on this subject, I promise.
It is yourself who is neglecting. I've actually posted academically credible data supporting the collusion between the Thai businesses/gov. and the Khmer Rouge. You conveniently ignored it. Until you can post something that disproves this or refutes it... you frankly haven't got a leg to stand on. I repeatedly told you that I haven't got an axe to grind on either side. I simply presented elements about the Thai/Khmer Rouge relationship that are widely unknown.. even in Thailand even by educated Thais - let alone you're average man on the street. Why is that so difficult for you to accept? Good. Then you actually agree. :bang: Thailand and Cambodia are not at war. But that doesn't mean there aren't tensions. The same could be said for Burma. You need to understand the basic concept of things being in one state doesn't neccessarily mean that other states are not possible. Or that the situation doesn't shift from time to time to either extreme. Yes, because aside from Enlgish it is one the of languages that represent the most chance for them to be able to move ahead in work (eg. trade between Thailand/Cambodia). It would be rather surprising if it wasn't a strong second language in Cambodia. Despite all of that it doesn't mean that everything is hunky dory between the two countries. I'm happy for you that you've had that experience. I really am. But it doesn't represent all of the relations between Cambodia and Thailand. Not even close. I suggest you stop posting anecdotal stories about yourself and actually learn some of the history of Thailand you seem to conveniently ignore. Scroll back up and look at the articles I've posted. Again - it's reached a point of sillyness talking about this with you about this. Yes while much of what you stated is true... and I don't now nor have I ever disagreed with much of it... it DOES NOT render invalid the collusion between certain Thai factions (eg. big business and military) and the Khmer Rouge. Until you can understand that concept and actually read what's been posted and come to have a wider understanding of Thai history then there really isn't much point in continuing on. You seem to think some sort of counter to what I've presented is to post issues that I in general agree to be true. It's a complete non sequiter in terms of refuting what's been posted with regards to Thailands history in dealing with the Khmer Rouge. Again.. for the umpteenth time. I understand what you're saying.. but it has little bearing on the conversation. Go back and understand what I've posted... if not then we really should just stop this because you continue to post things you think counter what I've posted... only they don't because: 1) They don't refute any of the actual historically accurate info I've posted 2) I generally agree with much of what you're saying - becaue it has very little to do with countering my stance if any at all. :bang: :bang: :bang: Are you daft?!?!?! Because the Burmese ransacked Ayudhaya doesn't mean that the Siamese didn't ransack the Khmer Empire at one point. It's not an either/or situation. What about that can't you understand?!?! :bang: :bang: Yes I know that the Burmese ransacked Ayudhaya - obviously it's in every history of Thailand ever written... but the entire point being that the issues of the Thai's ransacking the Khmer kingdom are very rarely discussed by most people. Let alone Thai people. Why oh why is that so hard for you to fathom?! My experience has been that 'khamen' doesn't have a very positive connotation with most Thai's. Just the same as my experience has been that many Thai's generally don't hold a very positive connotation of the Burmese. You've got your nationalist shirt up because some dirty laundry got aired and you didn't like it. Tough. It's typical of people who are ignorant to certain facets of their own history. Until you can actually read and understand what I've posted there is no point in continuing this because you're living in denial of reality. If you stop dodging particular issues in Thai history or respond with anything coherent and historicaly accurate then we have grounds for a conversation on the more complex issues of Thailands relationships with it's neighbors. If not you're just rambling with no real leg to stand on in direct response to what I've posted by noted Thai scholars. I could care less if you're interested in a peaceful coexistance... that wasn't the point of this whole convo frankly. It's all fine and well - but it has little bearing here - except for the fact I sincerely doubt there can be much peaceful coexistance if there is still a denial of certain elements of Thai history by Thai people.
I just want to chime in and say that "Slip" and "Sports" debate has been very informative and educational. I actually wish you two would keep at it because the rest of us who are merely reading the thread are undoubtedly learning a LOT!!!! On the other hand, you guys strike me as the type of guys who have deep philosphical differences and would debate each other endlessly, yet still be friends even after the most heated of arguments. You guys should get together for a couple of Singha's.....
I have to admit I've started to find the conversation frustrating because I don't actually disagree with much of what SportMuayThai has posted. It's just that I don't find much of it a relevant response to what I've posted. It is interesting and I do give him credit for his personal insights... but I was hoping that being Thai he wouldn't be so dismissive of work that has been done by some of the most renowned Thai historians. I don't neccessarily think the arguments are as polarized as they appear anyhow. But yeah some Beer Chang or some Sang Som with SportMuayThai would be fine by me. And it'd help to take the edge off of on-line convo's that can get a bit tense.
Dear khunKao and fire cobra, please rest assured, I don't harbour any ill feeling for slipthejab. Neither do I feel frustrated, and hope slipthejab will get over his soonest. Unfortunately, I don't drink alcohol. Nevertheless, I meditate some time lol. It's a pity this site doesn't allow photo posting.
A round of singha for slip and a round of vipassana for sport sounds the way to go,seriously guys for me that was very interesting from both of your points of view and has made me want to do some research in this area myself,thank you both gentlemen very much
yes, thank you both gentlemen, I know how it is, I have a friend with whom I always debating Taiwanese politics... it can be funny, frustrating, etc., and though our views can be similar, we both also very different...
But this site DOES allow photo posting!!! SanDa Champ "Bad" Brad Burrick with MuayThai Champ Brooks "Khun Kao" Miller No worries, I could tell you guys weren't getting ****y with one another. But I'd love to sit in on you two sitting down for a face-to-face debate. Not because I think it would be heated, but because of how educational it would be for me!
