Muay thai vs karate

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by 8limbs38112, Jan 15, 2014.

  1. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    We're talking different contexts...

    In the context you are talking, you are right: it'd take a lot longer than a month to attain any respectable level of mastery.
  2. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    If you're not doing the technique properly, you haven't learnt it. So evidently there will always be some level of mastery that comes with application, be it basic or advanced. Therefore the context doesn't really matter.

    However I am talking purely about the amount of techniques there are that you will need to learn, regardless of level. You need to learn aspects of Muay Thai such as clinch entry, clinch swimming, clinch escape, clinch and strike blocking, stop blocking, leg blocking, elbow blocking and elbow guarding, free standing and clinch turning, throws, sweeps, stance, the many striking techniques used and available during all of these techniques, combos. I can go on.

    You would not learn all the techniques available for these various aspects of Muay Thai within 16 hours of training while learning how to do basic Thai stand up striking, as well as conditioning, too. Be it at a basic competence or an advanced competence, level.
  3. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    We'll just have to agree to disagree mate.

    You could learn to jab in 5 minutes etc.

    Mastery is simply what you can actually do without thinking about it. That could be a terrible jab or a triple spinning kick. Mastery comes in stages/levels, some levels are distinguishable as achievements.

    I could do an entire Karate Kata, right now, I haven't practiced it for ... well, a very long time ... and I could teach it to you in maybe a week, if you wanted to learn ... there are ... let me count .... 28 techniques in all - not all distinct, but all unique - there are 12 turns and 4 switches.

    a month - all techniques - on basic level - enough to start training.

    that's easy.

    If we start splitting hairs about "when is a punch a punch". The first hook you throw is a hook, but if you wait for a Mike Tyson caliber hook to develop, before calling it a hook then your 1 year has potentially extended even further.

    As for conditioning - I am only talking about techniques.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  4. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    BUT to master that Kata I talked about .... to really, honestly master it, would take you years, if you were even able to do so!
  5. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    That's why out context is different.
  6. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    Star trek.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  7. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    the Next Generation.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  8. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    Please use the Edit button instead of multi posting.

    That's Karate and to me katas are nothing more than like learning a dance sequence. However putting that kata into proper effect is a different matter entirely. That will take a student much longer to learn to do competently.

    The question you answered was a simple one.

    "How long do you train in Muay Thai before you've learned just about all the techniques you can learn?"

    You stated 4 weeks or, to be exact, 16 hours.

    I am telling you that you are wrong, and my explanation why is quite clear. And also let me make something very clear. In no part of that question was basic techniques stated. He clearly stated "nearly all" techniques.

    You cannot possibly learn to implement every , or nearly every, technique in Muay Thai within a month. Whether from a pure art form standard or a competition standard. A good instructor wouldn't even attempt to overload a new student with so much information in such a short amount of time.

    I would sincerely argue the same for any other art, including Karate.

    Learning isn't just about being shown how to do something, but actually being able to do it as shown competently and mastery is bluntly a part of that, regardless of the level of mastery. You should not be graded until you have mastered what you need to master in order to progress, and to be quite frank I wouldn't join a school that graded students in any other way (which is why it took me near two years just to achieve green belt in Kickboxing, because my techniques had to be of a good standard of quality before I earned my certificate, not just because I could throw a roundhouse or a jab).

    And conditioning is just as important a part of the training in Muay Thai. Lessons aren't just about learning techniques. Note when I say conditioning I don't just mean the ability to take strikes, but also preparing the body for training, such as skipping, shadow boxing, etc. This is pretty much always a part of a Muay Thai class and will always take up part of the class time, which is an important factor to consider in the context of debate because we're talking about specific time frames.

    Therefore the context is accurate and true to what I have learnt about Muay Thai in my time learning the art so far. I have done it for two months, training aggressively and putting in much more time than 16 hours per month, and I have nowhere near learnt nearly every technique there is to learn yet whether at a basic level or an advanced one. I am willing to be my Kru could go back to Thailand, to his Ajarn, and still learn new things. And he spent a long time out there before learning Thaiboxing and fighting.

    Even with 16 hours of private lessons one wouldn't learn every technique of an art and be able to implement them at a competent level. And to me competent is the basic level of mastery. Because if you cannot safely pull off a technique in a live pressure tested scenario you are quite simply not competent at it, and you haven't learnt how to perform the technique properly.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Mindset doesn't get you used to being punched in the face.

    I rocked up at my first Muay Thai class expecting to be at least capable of sparring competitively with the people who had been training a year. I was about as wrong as I have ever been. The first time I got clobbered, all thought of technique and strategy and years of Karate sparring went out the window.

    As for street mentality - again, you're in fantasy land. TMA schools like to think they're teaching for the mean streets, but let's be honest, what does your average instructor know about the mean streets in the first place?
  10. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    Holy Macaroni.


    I didn't edit for a reason. The reason being: people were actively reading the thread and could well miss what I added.

    Dancing tends to use a different and co-operative body structure, not a distructive one. It is a common sentiment to dismiss forms and katas, they have the same value as you are ascribing to your extra time to master techniques - that's what they are for. They are effective and useful under the right tuition.

    You can - in one month - the basic techniques. Not 'completion mastery' level, that would take MUCH longer.

    I'm not talking about implementation. I'm talking about the basics. A jab, cross, hook etc. they have a basic form, just that.

    On those terms you have learnt nothing - see Shaolin Monk for more details.

    Yes, it's very important.

    Our context was different, yes, clearly...

    16, 32, 64 - whatever - that's plenty.

    Jab, cross, hook, uppercut, knee, shin kick, elbow variations, clinch, escape.

    For a beginner asking "how long to learn all the techniques"

    That would be fine.

    Please let's not continue with this - it's just like repeating the same thing over and over again in a different dialect. :)
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  11. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    Neither does being punched in the face....

    Yep, me too - sparing full-contact is valuable.

    The fact is that different people are different, and require different input to achieve success. Mindset is much more powerful than sparing in my own personal experience.

    Which is exactly what I've also been saying.

    I've been to lots of teachers.

    I only met one who had the guts to teach it fact having met him, I'd be tempted to say "he was the only one who had the guts to teach it at all!"
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  12. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    These are not one technique each, they are a bottomless pool of variations, switches and counters. There are several different knees, "shin kicks" and teeps for different situations as well.
  13. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    I know what you mean.

    And you know what I mean.

    Let's call a truce on this issue, no?
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  14. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    If you think "jab" is on the same order as "every possible escape from every possible clinch" then I don't think you do...
  15. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    I'm saying that I get what you mean.

    And if you really know Thai Boxing, unless you're just being awkward, you know exactly what I mean too. The original poster didn't ask "how long would it take to learn every possible variation of every possible technique, in any possible situation, to absolute mastery".

    He asked "how long to learn all the techniques"

    Based on the standpoint of the OP there's likely no concept of the depth you're discussing now.

    Please let's just stop.

    There's basics, and there's application .... and there's variation ... and degrees of mastery.

    ...The basic techniques can be differenciated, and they form the foundation principles to continue training with, which develop evolve - even branch off - over time.

    The end.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  16. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    The OP isn't asking how long it takes to learn basic techniques.

    He is asking how long it would take to learn all techniques, in a similar manner to how long it would take to learn all techniques in Karate to achieve your black belt.

    His posts for reference.

    It is pretty obvious he wants to know how long it will take to be of a good standard, not to learn a few basic techniques.

    If you think Muay Thai is just kick, punch, elbow, knee, clinch, & escape, and that everything can be learnt in a mere month, well then you have much more to learn about Muay Thai.

    As stated already, by a couple of us, Clinch alone has so many techniques it would take more than one month to learn them all.

    I cannot be bothered to argue this further. It's like talking to a brick wall.
  17. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    If the OP is asking in the context you presented above - it would take a long time.

    I was answering his rephrased question, thus:

    Clearly we have contemplated that deeply enough to consider - based only on the rephrased question - "just about all the techniques" without any further clarification of suggestions of depth, is just the basics.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  18. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I'm not talking about infinitely subtle mastery of technique, I'm talking about cross-facing to get out of the plum clinch being nothing even slightly like body-locking as a counter, for example. Or plum clinching being not the same technique as a single under-hook or collar-and-inside-tie or head-and-arm. A step knee from outside is, similarly, not the same technique as a curved knee to the body, it's as different as a cross is from a hook.
  19. EdScissorhands

    EdScissorhands New Member

    Let's talk about Muay Boran.
  20. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    P.S. Kick catches, kick catch escapes and counters? Sweeps and throws?

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