Nobody has a monopoly on truth. Some of Iain Abernethy's stuff works really well and that alone makes it worth investigating. It would be surprising if one were to agree with everything, or at the very least not take something and modify it, but that's just the nature of applying your own ideas to things. mitch
Actually, im letting go of this "breaking the Bo" rubbish and going with the accepted norm. Thanks for the advise everyone cheers Griffin
Hi Mike, I have got to go to work now (real life beckons), but will have a go at answering your questions later on tonight, as well as responding to your thoughts on Otsukas decision to raise the height of many hand techniques to Jodan. I remember you saying once that you trained in Wado many years ago. I am not sure how long you studied it for, or whether it was mainstream Wado (as opposed to Wado based), but I wonder if you got chance to study in depth any of the paired Kata I was referring to? It would almost certainly help in the discussion thread if you did. Gary
No problem and no rush. I appreciate it takes a lot longer to explain via the written word. Feel free to reference youtube vids wherever helpful. Studied, yes. In depth, no. I did Wado Ryu under Walter Seaton for a couple of years in the 70's. It was pretty traditional as far as I can determine, very similar to what Suzuki demonstrates in his book 'Karate do'. I have a passing familiarity with the Kihon and Ohyo kumite's but no more than that. Mike
Another question on Mr Abernethy. If he is Wado, there are obviously higher graded Wado people around. How come what he is doing is so 'new' or different? (I know I used the wrong terms there, but you know what I mean). Why is what he does so special? It seems odd that he should be so famous for something like Bunkai. Surely there are other people? It just seems a little strange to me. I am not saying he is rubbish or anything, just I can't really see why what he does is such a big attraction really.
Mr A is definitely not doing standard Wado bunkai. He's obviously made a study of bunkai from different sources and come to his own conclusions. FWIW I've looked at the list of acknowledgements in the front of a couple of his books and not recognised any of the names listed. Whether you buy into some/any/all of what he does is your own judgement. But really that's no different to almost anyone who purports to teach realistic bunkai these days. Very few have got much of real value direct from source in my experience. What I'd ask yourself is not so much where has he got it from, but do you think it works and is it a consistent methodology he's presenting or a hotch-potch of different ideas. There are many people who have presented some workable bunkai from what I've seen, but few - if any - who have come up with a consistent methodology that applies to all kata within their system or even just all moves within one kata. Mike
Hi Mike, Having mulled over your question for most of the day, I’d first like to state that the following represents my thoughts, and mine alone –as I am sure there are numerous other Wado-ka - far better qualified than me, who would be able to answer your question more accurately, but here goes anyway: When I made reference to working solo Kata in conjunction with paired Kata, on reflection, I think those words may have been too simplistic, as it is difficult (if not impossible) to take “literally” the moves found in Wado Ryu’s ”Kihon Gumite” and equate to where (and how) they may appear in solo kata. I think it is far safer to say that there should be a logical “familiarity” between the movements in solo kata and of that of Kihon gumite – but not necessarily a succinctly defined purpose or comparison. At risk of boring everyone to tears about Kihon Gumite, in a way they started off life (in Otsuka’s mind) long before the Wado’s Pinan katas were a glint in the young Otsuka’s eye, as they almost certainly originate from the much older Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu Koryu lineage. Originally 36 in number (although only ten are usually trained today), they formed part of an extensive list of “Waza” that made up the “Technical System of Wado-Ryu” in its submission to the Butokukai in 1939. As well as techniques for women, “naked” techniques and techniques for Policemen, there were also Idori (kneeling defences), Tanto dori (defence against the knife) and Tachi-dori (defences against the sword) etc.etc. Generally though, the 10 remaining “Kihon Gumite” are considered the “canon” of Wado practiced in most groups today, because not only are they manifest examples of wado’s principles of movement, they also contain some of the key mental and physical techniques/stratagems behind kumite – distance, timing, entering, evading etc. etc. But above all, the practice places great emphasis on “sabaki” and the use of “San-mi ittai” or three into one. Ten-I = To change position or to move off the centre line of attack – See maybe first move of Chinto for example maybe. Ten-Tai = To adjust your body position in relation to your opponent, in order to reduce target area and also to allow an attack to pass through. Ten-Gi = To change a defensive technique into an attack – or in other words to attack as your opponent attacks you. I remember training with Shingo Ohgami (author and 8th dan Wado-kai) many years back when; practicing Kihon Gumite, he mentioned the connection between the opening arm movements in Pinan sandan and that of the second movement in Kihon Gumite number 1 – he said something along the lines of “the feeling is like the second move of Pinan Sandan”. I had never even considered it before, but when he explained, it was a complete revelation to me. Once he did, I understood and realised that I was failing to make the connection because I was not taking into account Tenti, Tentai and Tengi etc. Although the movement and principles contained in both solo kata and paired kata remained intact, he had simple changed the “aspect” or his body position in relation to mine and changed a block into strike – nothing more nothing less – and this goes back to my earlier statement about “familiarity” of movement as a whole and not just technique. Brilliant!!, but then I guess you have to know Kihon Gumite to appreciate that. Anyway sorry for the ramble and I probably haven’t answered your question after all that anyway. Interesting thought though, I wonder what exposure Mr A had to Kihon Gumite and to what level it was explained to him? Gary
Hi Gary Just out of interest, is that just your own opinion or a widely held one? I don't really anything about Shindo Yoshin Ryu. It sounds as though you're saying that Ohtsuka modified the kata to embody some of the principles in his kumite's, rather than the other way around? We're not really that far from singing from the same hymn sheet. I practice something very similar as an application of exactly that move in the kata. In this particular technique I don't emphasise the evasion that is seen in the kihon kumite but the arm movements are essentially the same. For this application the kata is providing the principles of the arm movements, but not the positioning of the stance. This is not uncommon IME - the kata teaches mechanical principles (including the placement of the feet) but doesn't usually tell you anything specific about your orientation towards the attacker. Bingo! As far as I'm concerned the application should feel like the kata, whether it looks like the kata is irrelevant (the rational being that if the 2 feel similar they are likely embodying the same mechanical/anatomical principles). But the kata won't embody all the principles found in the application - orientation and distance to the attacker can vary from application to application so can't be expressed in the kata. I think to a degree you have answered it. We're perhaps not so far from each other in what we're doing, just using different terminology to describe a similar thing. Not really for me to answer that one! Mike
That is exactly my opinion and also what I am saying. It is one also held by many serious Wado-ka, who have spent a long time drilling down into what makes Wado tick. It seems even the likes of Mr Suzuki also appreciates the connection, as seen in this clip of Toby Threadgill of the Takamura-ha branch of Shindo Yoshin ryu - doing a demo at the WIKF (Suzuki's Wado Group) world championships in 2005. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibKCaHSJn4I The link between traditional Wado and SYR is an indelible one imo, unfortunately it seems to be poorly communicated among many modern Wado groups here in the UK. Mine being one if I am being honest. Gary
So far as I can see Iain has made his name by offering Karate bunkai that in the main fits the following criteria more than what has previously been widely available on the Karate market: 1. Is effective. 2. Resembles the Kata movement. 3. Can be applied outside of a pre-arranged attack. 4. Is designed to be effective against common fighting techniques. This is becoming more common now, but I remember that when I started karate, which was not that long ago, 1991, finding bunkai like that was so rare that you had to spend hours thinking through your own. In fact if I am honest I still it to be the exception rather than the norm.
