Motivation for the strict new franchising demands

This is just me wondering, but upon my return to these forums after 6 months, I see that nearly every page has been dominated by discussion of the new demands that the WKSA has put upon its member masters and their schools, such as the declaring of outright ownership of all school assets, for example. This request of theirs has without a doubt caused more stir and upheaval in the Kuk Sool world than anything in the past 50 years. For the first time since its inception, the Kuk Sool Won association is facing the defection of not just one master, (even one brother), not just one copyright issue, but if one can project from polls here, the defection of nearly 50% of its school owning masters.

My question is, what in the world could possibly motivate their leadership to request something so divisive? What could possibly be worth the damage to the organization they have built for 50 years? Is it merely the retirement of the grandmaster and the uncertainty of the direction his association will take in the aftermath? A bundling up of his children's inheritance in a more tightly manageable package? Or is it in fact that they anticipate something more damaging coming out, and this is their countermeasure against that? Perhaps a lie that they expect to finally catch up to them, and this is them cutting their losses ahead of time?

I am interested in speculation. Most of the discussion has been about just what they want, what everyone will do, and what the alternatives are. But here I want to ask, what does everyone think about WHY they would do this?

 

I think it is quite natural to ask "why?", and I think its also quite human to craft intricate theories to explain that which is not immediately grasped.

However, in this case I suspect the motivation may be as simple as, "because we can".

I've been away from Kuk Sool Won for a very long time now so I'm not privy to any sources other than this forum and, of course, the WKSA itself, but I have seen no indication of the defection rates you project. My take has been that most existing schools will remain in WKSA and those that leave will of course, be welcomed to return (someday).

 

This has been discussed to death on the franchise thread. Do we really need another one on basically the same topic?

 

This WAS the original consensus, but the WKSA did a quick 180º WRT peppering little *goodies* into the "grandfather" clause which exempts existing schools of certain obligations. These incentives appeased many that were initially upset and that had seriously considered leaving. However, the Won itself, has recently disclosed a figure of approximately 95% retention. FWIW.

An interesting concept, even if steeped in "conspiracy theory" mumbo-jumbo (IMO).

This seems more like it to me, especially knowing the mentality of those in charge.

Yeah, right! Like anyone that decided to leave the Won will want to return with NONE of the perks that were afforded those who chose to stay (via the now infamous "grandfather" clause for existing schools). I also wouldn't think the WKSA would be too keen on readily accepting what they may view as "troublemakers" but since the higher franchise fees would be in play, it would mean more money coming into their coffers, plus the franchise agreement would certainly favor the Won if any such wayward schools were to have second thoughts. :thinking:

But who knows, there may be some silly people out there that can arrive at the conclusion that such a thing is TRULY in their best interest, but personally I wouldn't count on it. IMO it's much easier to run a profitable business (where the main focus is teaching kuk-sool), that doesn't have to adhere to some of the tight restrictions imposed by the Suh clan. No, I think any that split away now most likely will never return.

Hi, John.

Hey, it's been said before, if you don't like the topic of a particular thread, you don't have to read it. And I agree with you that self-moderating could be perceived in such a way as to follow your advice and dispose of this thread (in essence, carrying it over to the one you mentioned). But ultimately, unless the mods decide the two threads need to be merged, then both threads will either continue to live on or die out quickly - only the contributors can decide the fate of the discussion, not the detractors. :evil:

 

a moderator could comb through and merge, but i dont think there is one on this board

 

:bow1:Your reasoning is sound. I was only considering it from the Won point-of-view, as I believe that money certainly soothes over any past misunderstandings...but certainly, there is little incentive for a departing school to ever return.

 

Fair enough Unknown. I will vote with my feet! LOL

 

It's about the money

The correct path in order is or should be:

1) loyalty to one's instructor
2) loyalty to one's art
3) loyalty to one's organization

When an organization, any organization, places itself before the art or instructor, it fails in its purpose for existence. Organizations exist to serve the collective membership.

Any organization extracting money from its member schools, instructors, or students beyond a basic and reasonably priced annual membership fee, testing fees which cover the cost of conducting a test and providing certificates and nothing more, and nominal fees for attendence at seminars is an organization that is, in effect, functioning as a business.

Martial art organizations should not be businesses. If yours is, you should quickly seek an alternative organization or separate from organizations altogether.

Your training comes from your instructor in the art. Be loyal first and foremost to your instructor, then to an art.

Be part of an organization only if and when it operates for the benefit of its members and not itself!

 

SeongIn,

It looks like you took some of what has been discussed in several different threads for weeks and even month and put it into a few simple but powerful words. Very nice and obviously many people agree with you, as do I.

I’m still wondering what it is that keeps people in an association or organization that does not have the best interest of it’s members in mind like it is the case with the WKSA. I’m sure by now most people even if they are not school owners know what a raw deal they are getting once they sign the agreement. I know of several people that will be leaving in the near future, a rather large wave should come once some of the Sa Bum Nims promote to Master.

Of course there are quite a few that will stay, the same people that make fun of those that have left, but like I said, I wonder what it is that makes them stay? It can’t be ONLY about the money…after all it’s not like they are earning more after signing the agreement.

OB

 

There are so many organizations out there that gouge their member schools I don't know how they stay in operation other than churning new schools in and out. I'm not familiar with what's going on in KSW other than what I've read here but it sure looks like a mess.

 

Lots of propaganda on this thread.

Let's just be clear that most, if not all, of the comments are from non-Won, ex-Won or soon-to-be ex-Won (as OB suggests) folks.

OB, just out of curiosity, why are people waiting for promotion to Master to leave if they are so disgruntled? What does that say about rank-chasing? Or does that mean while folks may not like the WKSA, people recognize WKSA rank as more meaningful than not? If Master rank is important to them, why not just leave and self-promote? It wouldn't be the first or second time a person leaves the Won and self-promotes!

SeongIn writes, "Martial art organizations should not be businesses." Oh really? Last time I checked, both Won and non-Won schools operate as a business...collecting money for training. I wonder how many are registered as non-profit organizations? LOL. Nope, they operate as for-profit businesses. In fact, it is the business aspect of school-owners that played a large role which led them to reject the WKSA franchising and leaving the Won.

When someone hits you, it may be an accident. When s/he hits you again...you might blow it off as that person being particularly clumsy. But when that person hits you a third or fourth time...at what point should you have the right to protect yourself?

Consider in the past 20-25 years that many people come and go within the Won. But as high-ranking folks left the Won...not only did they continue to operate their own schools (which may be fine) but they've started separate associations in direct competition with the WKSA. I don't see the WKSA demanding royalties from these folks either. Where did the powers-that-be from the UMSF, KSC, YKSD, KSDU etc etc etc all learn their KS from?

The WKSA has a right to protect itself from Goodwill Theft and if the groundwork lies with strict franchising rules, so be it.

It seems particularly ironic to me that instead of blaming the thieves, folks want to blame the guy who is trying to defend himself. My suspicion is that if all these ex-Won masters simply left and didn't form competing associations...I'm not so sure the WKSA would have even gone the franchising road. Or put it another way, if there was no theft, the guy wouldn't be trying to defend himself!

 

Why do they stay?
As someone who has "hovered" in the past between staying and going I can tell you that there was no single thing that made my mind up. It was more about a balance of +'s and -'s, many of which I have detailed previously elsewhere in this forum so I won't bore you all with those. If, at some point, you decide that the +'s of leaving outweigh the -'s then at that point, you leave.
As for the "rather large wave" of SBN's who say they will leave once they promote, well don't hold your breath. The warm, loving, grasp of the WKSA is harder to excape than many think! For me and my students, I felt it was the right thing to do, when the time was right, and I certainly have no regrets, but for others this may not be the case.
Anyone who is seriously considering leaving can PM me and I will tell you openly and honestly how it was for me. I won't try to persuade you either way, in fact you may even find that what I tell you helps you to decide to stay!

 

I think you will find (as I am sure you reaslised) that SeongIn's comment was not referring to individual schools but to those orgs which issue certification for MA, like the WKSA.
If you are looking for such an org, then you may be interested in this.... "NKMAA Inc. is a Government registered nonprofit association dedicated to provide politically free assistance and support to Korean style martial artists of all ranks and disciplines. NKMAA Inc. was established in the early 70’s by Grand Master Rudy W. Timmerman, and our lineage can be traced back to Choi Yong Sul -- who is thought by many to be the founder of Hap Ki Do. "
(From the home page of the NKMAA website - my bold and italics)

 

Well I can understand the SBN's that have paid a substantial amount in testing fees to stay until promotion. However as the post on one of the threads indicates the certificates would have been given out even if they would have left. Of course not knowing this at the deadline time... who could blame them.

AFA *all of the sudden* people see WKSA as a business...Please... if you didn't know that from the get go you need some serious brain scans.

I was on the fence too, but weighing everything out I decided the +'s out weighed the -'s for me. Sure there's other org's out there, but I wanted to stay with the original beside Kuk Sa Nim has always treated me well, as have his sons. I have a business background and understand the move to the francise business model (see VM's previous post).


Regards

 

For many people, leaving the won is something they decide to do long after they (or their students) have paid the fees for testing; hence, many wait until they "collect" their paid for certificates. No sinister plot to get this so called valuable rank from WKSA and then leave, just completing unfinished business. When you collect large fees for certification waaaayyyy ahead of time, this is something one could expect.

Some simple math can give you an idea on how much money we are talking about. All one has to do is add up the fees paid for the 3-4 students tsting for JKN, add to this a 2n and 3rd dahn. Perhaps a 4 or 5 dahn for the school owner himself, and you are looking at a sizable sum the school owner would have to shell out if he did not wait until certificates are received.

This problem is compounded by WKSA insisting that yet more people from the same school pay (when new students are ready before the old ones have received their goods), and pretty soon you are caught in a web that just does not stop until the school owner decides to take the loss. This is especially so in established schools that produce new test candidates of various ranks on a regular basis.

Leaving an organization is stressful to begin with. Students do not like change, and you are bound to lose a number of them when you make a major change such as leaving the organization that has provided your certification. School owners need to carefully look at the pros and cons of leaving, check the legal aspects of it, double check any new "connections" you are thinking of joining instead.

ALL organizations have issues that you may not like; and, before you jump out of the pan, it is prudent to check the size of the fire under it. The main concern is to ensure the happiness of your students, even though they may not realize what really IS best for them in the long run.

I stayed the course a long time before I decided to leave, and my decision was based on the fact that I was going to quit martial arts rather than continue on the same path. So, I no longer weighed the consequences in terms of students leaving or staying. I simply did not care, and when I left it was for my own self preservation. I was actually surprised when many of my old students stayed with me, and I am pleased to see more are returning as time goes by.

Rudy

 

This old gripe again?

Even learning institutions such as universities receive tuition payments from their students and try to operate within a budget that leaves a surplus. Or how about those driving safety courses people take in order to dismiss a speeding ticket (or other violation), I believe they operate solely to earn a profit. So why not MA classes?

As for the umbrella-type MA organizations which hand out rank certification and other such perks, I think they could go either way, but if leaning away from the non-profit structure toward a more commercial aspect, there ought to be some sort of *checks & balances* in place to help maintain integrity, honesty, fairness, and other such noble ideals or they run the risk of being labeled, "greedy money-grubbers."




And one more comment I'd like to make, revolves around the wonderful scenario described by VM in post #11. This scenario was an obvious analogy to the predicament of WKSA. But I think it hits home more than we realize. Apparently the hits are but mere slaps, as the person in the scenario wasn't knocked down from the blows, so we'll assume they're more irritating than they are damaging. Ducking any future slaps is more advisable as opposed to confrontation, unless you have a taste for such trouble.

OTOH, people who have made the choice to leave WKSA, after giving their support for decades, are IMO more akin to someone who's been dealt a traumatic blow. Nothing like getting hit by a bus, thus snuffing out all life, but severe enough to be crippling. Now most people who were once perfectly healthy and are now crippled (whether accidentally or not), harbor some resentment whether they admit to it or not. And most will choose to focus on the positive and get on with their lives. This is identical to a life-long MAist choosing not only to continue PRACTICING for personal benefit, but also to continue TEACHING for the benefit of others (a life-crushing blow would be the equivalent of retirement from MA altogether).

I also hold a different opinion about ex-Won masters "competing" with WKSA. The way I see it, they are competing with every single other MA being offered to the public, not just KSW. Sure, they may use similar tag lines in their advertising such as, "a beautiful and dynamic style that emphasizes speed and fluidity" or "not a sport or just another oriental self defense method, but a comprehensive martial art" or even "our martial art combines kicking, punching, throwing, falling, choking, joint-locking and a myriad of weapons techniques." But this doesn't prove they are competing directly with WKSA, rather it points to the fact that the person in charge is more focused on teaching MA to worry about rewording their advertising so that it still accurately describes what they teach while using distinctly different catchphrases from the ones used by WKSA.

And if they teach what's locked in their brain, how is that "stealing" from someone else? Most ex-Won folks don't make up some BS about learning MA from a vision where kwan-yu came to them in a dream (LOL). No, they clearly state their lineage. So that puts an end to the argument about theft.

FYI- people pay over $1000 for 5th dahn in KSW. I think this is perfect justification for their willingness to wait and actually receive that little black plaque with mother-of-pearl inlay.

After shelling out big bucks, who would be content with a flimsy paper certificate? No, I'd want (and insist) on that mother-of-pearl inlaid ebony plaque. :whistle:

Well said.

 

It should be pointed out that at present, as far as I am aware, only one ex-won school owner has been sent certificates for his students in this way. There may be particular reasons for this, or it may indeed be the case that every such school will get the same treatment. Time will tell. But I find it hard to believe that the WKSA will issue 5th dahn certificates (and maybe the plaques that usually go with them) in this way...but you never can tell.

Very good point! If you have ever met KSN you could be under no illusion about this.

Thats great for you Obewan. Although there are plenty who would take issue with your use of the term "original". As Saja says it is always best to check out all the pros and cons. If at this point staying in is what is best for you, then that is what you should do. I wish you well.

 

Just curious as my only impression of KSW is from what seems to be the constant threads about franchise and all that mess here at MAP...

But I'm curious does KSW have any sort of problems attracting new members with what appears to be the nonstop politics and jockeying for position and loyalty?

Seems to me that life is full of enough of this type of crap. Having a family and a full time job who would want to go train in a style where this seems to be the ever present concern?

 

Hi, STJ.

Actually, in class it's much like any other MA out there. The focus is on the training, on perfecting your skills, etc. It's only after people have moved up in rank and decided to open a school of their own that the politics start to become apparent.

I am reminded of a MA that was absolutely demoniacal, however. It used outright brainwashing techniques on the students and demanded outrageous sums of money for the lessons. It eventually went to court and the schools are no more (for the most part). I'm not going to mention the name, but it WAS organized by a korean, FWIW.

 

but sir, should leaving an organization be a problem if they are YOUR students?

lets say a guy named justin jim owned a school in a city called venicia as a satellite school of jeon tong mu ye headed by master/founder jang. he hires an instructor of chief master jang's, named bill.

for two years master jim under pays him and is always in korea doing things, leaving bill to teach all the classes. after two years, master jim's lease ends, but not only wants to move down the road for cheaper rent, he also wants to leave the parent organization. instructor bill thinks it is time to do his own thing as well, but will stay under his teacher, chief master jang. problem is, the best location happens to be within five miles of master jims new operation, and bills new dojang is in the back of a gym (3rd floor!). where did all of the 120+ students go?

of course they went with the man that taught them, mr. bill. they only saw master jim when his presence graced his dojang (like once a month), and really the students only learn from chief master jang at bbelt level on saturdays and seminars/promotions. regardless of the less than comfortable accomadations, mr. bill won their hearts with his teaching. no certificate, affiliation, name, landlord, or face could win a student (or their parents) from a solid teacher.

it kills me when i read of people leaving a teacher for a parent org.

this is a real situation