Okay here is a application for the movements of Morote (uchi) Uke I am referring to: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/kotegaeshi/kotegaeshi-chudantsuki.wmv This from the website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/kotegaeshi.htm In the video it is done with a projection (breakfall allowed). All I am saying is that the karate version did not allow for a good breakfall and was to break the wrist. After the force is applied to break the wrist, the opponent's own fingers were driven into his eyes as the follow through. I hope this make sense. Again, this is only one possible mapping for the movements in the kata. Sorry, I'm realizing that my text descriptions are horrible. Look at the hand positions and movements in the video and compare that to the movements of Morote (uchi) Uke found in kata.
hmmmm... my last post did not show up. testing... my last post did not show up until I created this post??? Something isn't right.
That's very interesting RW! I'd never thought of the preparation point as anything more that just..well..a preparation point! But using that application, the preparation point is the important bit - the grasp - and the morote uke movement is the twist. Very plausible and a nice technique.
Moosey, FYI, as one possible mapping, almost every preparation point such as a side to side cover can be a parry/deflection block to an mid-level punch or grab in bunkai.
It is what I thought it was! Yes, it is a possible application and I've seen that before in the Edinburgh Univeristy Shukokai club's Heian Nidan work - deomnstrated about 2 years ago by Gerard O Dea and Steven Webster. But that Aikido was terrible. The attack is done at snail speed and is very unrealistic. The guy takes the Koto gaeshi from a low position and then raises it high - something you can only do on a compliant partner. He had no reason to slap the arm down after he'd slipped the punch - that is just poor form. Then, when he does the Koto gaeshi he uses the 'lets throw him across the car park large wrist bend motion' instead of the 'I'm dropping you right here and now at my feet version'. He is also using the two arms together version of Koto gaeshi which makes for an easier fall for his partner but makes the technique less viable against a non compliant partner. The technique works as a way of applying morote uchi uke - the questions I would raise are: 1. How did you get his hand in the first place at that range? 2. Why not just control his arm with the rear hand while walloping him with the forward arm - it requires less fine motor skill and is thus more likely to work. I think it is the sort of technique I would teach if I were still doing a classical Karate style as a means of broadening my students education and getting them to think out of the box. That is where I see the value in this.
Thank You jwtitchen As an aikidoka I saw a number of basic principles ignored. The most important being that the centreline must be defended during execution of a technique. The"attack" had no element of danger and no intention of a follow up attack. BASIC PRINCIPLE The attacker must be unbalanced at the INSTANT of musubi (contact) below the instant of musubi, if gerry had his hand "cocked" on his hip as shown on the video the atemi would have THHO (taken his head off) One word on morote uchi I was told to clearly understand that if the ude uchi is made by the left arm the right arm AUGMENTS the strike/block not simply supports it so both arms are driving the block in. again jd my thanks EDit and WHAT is a "pleasant" kote gaeshe??????????????
Where the technique is put on so loosely that all the Uke has to do is go with it to avoid any pain whatsoever. Generally speaking unless you are putting it on in a non training situation (ie so hard as to rip the hand/wrist or cause a break) a Kto gaeshi is always a pleasant alternative to a punch to the face. One of my pet hates about the technique, particularly the one where the wrist is bent as opposed to the hand being attacked, is that the response is often artificial. By this I mean that when you apply this on soeone who's never had it doen to them before they will either stand there and do nothing, say "ouch', or twist. I've never seen anyone but an Aikidoka be thrown by it. I can remember the first time I had it done to me in my first Aikido class - it was done high (which was even then a dying trend) and I just backflipped out of it as my automatic response (as a fairly agile Shotokan Shodan at the time) to the way the pain was going. I almost took off the Tori's face in the process.
Only ever seen an aikidoka being thrown by it. This is because some aiki bunnies are trained to FALL!!! The turning of the wrist rather than twistng should be at such an angle as to cause the elbow to turn which causes the shoulder to turn breaking the hip (centre of balance) and the wrist is turned "where it lies" NOT in a large circle (cue kick in the head) I am also sure as a dan grade shotokan your left hand would not have remained (in your pocket) stuck to the left hip. All aikido techniques should attack the balance rather than the limb itself. regards koyo
Well said. Of course as primarily a ballistic stylist I believe that all techniques should attack the balance while also attacking the limbs or any other part of the body.
I had to search a bit but I found near the exact application I was taught: http://www.ellisaikido.org/vid/kotegaeshi/ko02d.html Notice at the end there is an atemi to the face. In the variation I was taught, that last atemi is done as the person is still standing but unbalanced. The atemi goes through the hand so the end result is the above technique looking more like a combination of the above and this: http://www.ellisaikido.org/vid/kotegaeshi/ko01h.html Except instead of the allowed ukemi, the focus is to break the wrist in the direction to drive uke's fingers into his eyes (but the hand is not raised, first the wrist is broken when it lies). Only after the wrist is hurt/broken is the hand raised. At that point uke is vulnerable to driving his hand into his face as the follow-through (and to add insult to injury, putting his own broken wrist into his face and poking him in the eyes with his own fingers). The movement/bunkai is verse an mid-level attack (it is important that the attack is not too high or coming in an upward angle because the parry is more of a smother, and this could leave the armpit open to attack, a potentially deadly mistake -- it is important to protect under the armpit and ribs at all times). The attack is parried/checked using the front hand. It is important to keep tori's elbow below uke's elbow during the parry, otherwise uke can retract the arm along tori's stomach/center. (Koyo mentioned the importance of protecting the centerline.) -- There is also a "hidden" atemi here using the elbow to break uke's arm at the elbow. There should also be a slight unbalancing of uke here by extending uke's arm and redirecting (this redirection, however, is mainly so not to get hit). Similar to gyaku kote gaeshi, the rear hand does the work to break the wrist while the front hand mostly controls uke's arm. The idea of using the rear hand for control (instead of for the break) while walloping him with the forward arm could work well such as a sokomen irimi (striking across uke's head to turn it away) which is one of my favorite techniques. However, this requires the ability to get to the outside of uke's front leg to work well. I only want to do this if I can ensure that I get behind that leg by first unbalancing uke. The way we train these moves (bunkai), however, is that uke can attack with either leg forward, and uke can have a knife (training knife) instead of empty handed. So what ever first responses are done, it has to work for if there is a weapon and not matter which foot is forward. After the intial response, the technique can change as needed or be a completely different technique/application, but the initial response has to be simple and flexible. We only teach this as advanced bunkai. Our basic bunkai for morote uchi uke movement is a double strike. The "top" hand backfists to the temple while the bottom hand strikes to the jawline.
Yes, Henry Ellis. He was the Aikidoka I previously mentiooned. Now I have never trained with him but I do have reservations about what I see in these clips. In the first clip Tori walks off??? The focus in this does not look like Aiki to me and seems to support what I heard that Pierre had said about Henry Ellis' stuff. I used to do something similar to this against straight knife thrusts, nowadays I only do Koto Gaeshi to remove the blade after I've dealt with the attack and attacker. I see. I think its a pretty good technique but I'm not 100% convinced that it is applicable in an ambush situation against an unknown attack with adrenaline pumping through the system due to the amount of fine motor control and body positioning required. My only query with the basic bunkai is why do both strikes at the same target area (head)? Surely it makes more sense to do high and low - the is less chance of interception.
I see what you mean. I also did not like that he left his armpit a little open when lifting the elbow over uke's arm. I actually prefer to parry the hand/forearm first to redirect the attack before trapping the forearm and attacking the hand. I like to come from underneath the knife arm when I can instead of from above as in koto gaeshi. In fact I used to hate koto gaeshi, thinking it the worst technique ever (why not just punch them?). However, since I've been working on how to unbalance people better and how to "strike through a hand" to break the fingers and wrist, I don't dislike it as much, in fact I kind of like it. I don't expect anyone but white belts to apply the strikes as per the basic bunkai. The way to apply it in application is to backfist through the temple and jawline to turn the opponent's head. This exposes their chin as a target. The other hand strikes with a vertical fist strike at a slightly upward angle (a angle between a right cross and uppercut) to the chin/jaw. The strikes are together but not at the same time. The first strike comes a few tenths of a second before the second strike. The second strike starts about the time the elbow has dropped on the first strike. (A follow up to these strikes could be a strike to the ribs or centerline using the front hand.) Oh and just to mention, the previous movement to the "double strike" is to parry/redirect the opponent's punch/arm.
It all sounds good. These days I tend to work on a combination of leg nudges below the centre of gravity and work on the elbow and shoulder, jaw and clavicle to unbalance. I don't use the wrist so much due the range I predominantly work at (plus I am normally inside as opposed to outside - a side effect of dealing with haov all the time). When I do use Koto gaeshi I use the variant that doesn't unbalance, it just causes a vertical drop on the part of the other person and the wrist bends into the arm, not outside it.
Again a BASIC principle is missing. NEVER ATTEMPT TO THROW SOMEONE UNTIL HE HAS BEEN UNBALANCED PROPERLY. Kote gaeshe does not unbalance the attacker. He must be cut or struck off balance FIRST. Then kote gaeshe shall be effective as shall almost any other pragmatic technique. This is down to too much emphasis on technique rather than basic principles. Un balancing BACKWARDS TO THE SIDE is a fundamental principle often ignored by or unknown to may aikidoka. The unbalancing is not only to allow the technique but to make o follow up strike most difficult. And the unbalancing in a good martial artist shall last only a moment before he reccovers. Saddly I think that aikido has become a habit for many rather than being constantly refined. regards koyo edit photo post 66 Gerry has been unbalanced and is vulnerable to kote garshe (and othr techniques) BUT he shall remain vulnerable only for an instant during which the technique must be applied.
Well you can see why I am not much loved in some aikido "circles". It seams I miss the point because I have a "fighting mind." "harmonise or DIE!!!" regards koyo
Indeed. I see too many martial artists of all styles who try to lock or throw people who haven't already been hit or distracted. Just out of interest - what brought you across to this particular Karate thread?
We use morote tsuke as multiple strike when entering to the side.And I noticed rebel wado posting and have hed a few discussions with him. Also I see aikido as a budo and therfor can learn from any information on other arts. I was not about to post until kote gaeshe was mentioned. In my earlytraining I often cross trained with karateka and have had instruction from Enoida shihan, Kanazawa shihan. Close friends are high grades in karate, judo or kendo and we often cross train. regards koyo.
Training with these guys made a tremendous difference in my aikido. Gyaku tsuke while attempting kote gaeshe or osoto gari (leg sweep) while attempting tenchi nage quickly sends you back to the drawing board. And guess what BASIC FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES. (1) do not get hit (2) remember the first (1) (3) unbalance (4) if it works use it (5) if it does;t don't regards koyo edit One of the worst things an aikidoka can do is train only with other aikidoka. (if he is interested in developing an effective technique)
