Moose's "what's it really for?" part 2

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Moosey, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No not a bad target area at all, my concern is with the technique used to target the area. My concern is that 9 out of 10 times you won't get that target to hit in a real situation, and if you do get the target because it is using the motion of chudan yoko uke to strike the opposite side of the head, it isn't going to have a lot of power to it.

    What I mean is that your arm has to be the right size to fit the target. If you are too short, you won't get the target, if you are too tall, you also won't get the target.

    I suggested to aim for the eyes, that changes the angle of attack from horizontal to vertial, which means that when the elbow is dropped, you get a much more powerful whipping motion with the back knuckle because you can put your weight behind it. Also if the head is turned, the aiming for the eyes automatically turns into a hit to the temple on either side.
     
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Actually there is a heck of a lot of gross targeting going on. The movement is the inside reciever, not the outside receiver. When applied from the outside, as shown in the photos I posted the forearm slams across the other person's arm which creates an umbalancing effect (LU10), this is assisted by the forward motion of the leg which also works a lower body slam. The actual 'block' well - the fist is going for the temple but could equally take out the cheek or lower jaw if you miss (which at that range is hard) and the wrist of the attacking arm can also take out the side of the neck while the meat just after the elbow can effect a clavicle slam. I've tested this technique based on my normal check-list of haov, low maintenance, transferable skills, redundancy, adrenaline tolerance, unbalancing, and pressure points. I've also done this alive against a partner in a high gear suit. With regard to striking to the temple - it is my prime target area, based on a lovely experience I had about 11 years ago of being floored by a light backfist there. I was perfectly okay, I just had my balance taken by the hit (inner ear fluid disturbance) so that I couldn't stand for about 5 minutes and my phrenic nerve (I believe) was compressed so I was unable to talk at all for round about the same length of time (slight facial paralysis). The added bonus was a hairline fracture to the upper jawbone resulting in difficulty eating for about a month. The move is designed to drop the other guy - but if it fails I have a built in back up sequence to go straight into (I do this with all my moves). Trust me, this technique is designed more to bludgeon rather than be pin-point surgery.

    We're not going to have to have another neko ashi dachi moment on this are we? :Angel:
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2006
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Sigh. I can't really post large portions of an as-yet unpublished book on here.

    The initial hand on hips position in Heian Sandan can be a nice throw, but it can also be wrapping your arm round a guy's neck and effecting a headlock.

    The elbow and backfist techniques that accompany this position, if you are bent over and in a headlock, can be used to break out of the lock. The leg techniques can be used against the other person from the position that break-out puts you in. The elbow techniques can also be used as a form of s bend lock.

    The initial knee drop in Empi with Gedan Barai - I have shown a facing headlock escape application for this (again pressure tested) in Traditional Karate magazine. I can post some cheesy pics if desired.
     
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm only suggesting that more power will come with the same amount or less effort if the target is changed to the eyes or collar bone instead of the temple.

    The reason for this is that the technique has the dropping of the elbow as part of it. If you backfist AND drop the elbow, you will see the angle of attack changes to more of a vertical vector. You might even confirm my belief that if you drop the elbow slightly before the backknuckle, you can generate a whipping motion that increases as you drop your weight.

    It is just a suggestion.

    P.S. If the technique did not require that the elbow be dropped, then a backfist or back knuckle to the opposite side temple would be fine in my opinion. It is only that the elbow is being dropped as in chudan yoko uke that I am addressing.

    Hehe :D

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    Thanks for being so patient with me. My concern is not pin-point targetting. I have no problem with that. My concern is that the technique is sacrificing power for targetting. The two should work together, so even if you miss your intended target by a little bit, the strikes will still have significant power behind them to hurt/impact the opponent.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2006
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I see where you are coming from but I am not backfisting the guy. You seem to be envisaging a downward strike with the backs of the knuckles whereas what I am actually doing is the more powerful clockwise circular strike with a counter-clockwise wrist rotation at the end so that it is the side of the knuckle rather than the back of the hand that is making the impact. Part of the reason for employing the circular as opposed to downward motion (other than keep with the uchi uke technique) is that this motion - when coninued further (and the strike is hard as opposed to a posed camera stop) works with teh way the upper body is unbalanced by the strike across the forearm on the way in. This in turn works with the optional concurrent knee slam into GB 32 on the thigh. In actual fact my elbow is rising, not dropping. My elbow moves across the arm and then up with the arm rotation, the upward motion increasing the unbalancing effect in the manner of Koke nage.
     
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'm starting to see where you are coming from. In some styles of Karate the chudan inside and outside receivers are done as heavy hammer like stomps into the other person's arm. I've even seen this done by some Shotokan lower grades and higher grades who haven't yet experimented with the forward and upward pusing motion as opposed to the downward slam (though I beleive some associations just use the downward motion). The latter feels powerful but works on a force versus force basis. The forward and upward motion variant on the other hand works on a force redirection basis and puts less pressure on the defender for a better result - ie can be pulled off by a weaker person against a stronger person. This is most clearly seen when using the uchi uke and ude uke in classical style sparring followed by an oi zuki with the previously blocking arm. If the arm technique used is the one that diverts from underneath and upwards then the jab shoots outwith hardly a pause. If the blocking technique is the downward one then to punch p requires a more severe change of direction and is consequently slower.
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks for the info jwtitchen.

    I believe, the specific difference is that in my version of the application, the force is driven through the elbow first. In the version you describe, the force is driven through the forearm first.

    The forearm first is how I strike most of the time. For instance the forearm strikes the jawline of the opponent, followed by the elbow to the chest or shoulder (this is all one technique with two components, one component that strikes through the jawline, another component that strikes as the forearm recoils that applies the elbow/shoulder through the person to knock them back). It is like two hits in one.

    Now I made the mistake that I thought you were applying the other variation, elbow/shoulder first, and then forearm/fist. This motion creates a whip like effect that can be good to counter if someone tries to get a good grab on you. The way this works for instance is, strike to the side with an elbow into the solar plexus of the opponent, followed by the dropping of the elbow and whipping the back of the fist into the collar bone, then whipping the hand down to strike the groin. Three strikes in succession along the center meridian.

    So basically, I now see that my original assumption that you were using a whipping technique was incorrect, so I stand corrected. I was trying to suggest a better whipping technique than the one I thought you were using, when in fact you weren't using a whipping technique.
     
  8. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    It's Skip! I haven't seen him for years! The Bill Cosby of budo.

    The last time I saw him was at the 2003 Katsuura Nihon Budokan Budo Seminar in Chiba Prefecture. With Rob Rousselot and Tim Juergens.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006
  9. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Thanks for the info Rebel Wado.

    I see what you mean. There is a whipping effect with the strike I'm describing, but it is a small wrist powered whip with the fist at the end of the upward forearm slam. It is the whip that forms the actual strike to the head/neck area whereas the slam attacks the arm and body.
     
  10. pauli

    pauli mr guillotine

    that, i'll give you. (though the way i was taught the kata, it is actually disguised as some ludicrous jumping thing...)
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'll have to try your technique out in class. It is interesting.

    The way I was taught a similar move to that was to rotate the opposite way at the forearm. So it goes slam with the forearm, then rotate so that the palm whips around and slaps the side of the head along the jaw line. The finger tips hook on the jaw bone (if you feel just below the ear along the jaw there is a nice handle that the fingers can hook onto) and turn the head, opening up the whole side of the head as a target.

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    On a related note, the whipping back knuckle I said comes after an elbow to the solar plexus, I meant after an elbow strike to the throat under the chin. The elbow strikes slightly upwards, that way the elbow can be dropped to generate the power for the back knuckle strike. The target is the point just below the right eye between the cheek and the nose, striking with a single knuckle rake.
     
  12. Haduken

    Haduken Valued Member

    the standing guillotine can be seen in seiunchin kata - after the first mae empi uchi - where you move off at a 45 degree angle into sanchin dachi (most strangles/chokes work better when working on an angle). this is our bunkai for the move - the whole "assissted block" thing really doesn't work for me - just can't understand why you would block like this... there may also be an application where it is a way to dominate a clinch, as from a double lappel/head grab
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Haduken,

    I guess you really didn't go back and read the thread. :D Don't treat it as a block, treat it as a receiver. I've never come across any technique in Karate that I could actually consider a 'block' as its main application. So if you have an assisted receiver all that means is that you are hitting with both limbs at the same time (3 limbs if you include the low level leg attack at the same time).

    BTW - are you actually talking about the same technique as the rest of us or are you talking about a different technique which is found in the seiunchin kata? What's the Japanese terminology for the technique you are describing?
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hey jwtitchen,

    What did you think of my preferred application of Morote (uchi) Uke as a wrist break?
     
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    To be honest I have mixed feelings about this technique for a couple of reasons. It is in some respects a good technique, but despite the element of proprioception involved I have concerns about acutally hitting such a small and more mobile target area (considering there is less surrounding it if you miss and the fact that the hands aren't joining together as the grip is different to the strike so proprioception is being worked against rather than with).

    My biggest beef with it is this, Koto Gaeshi is itself a wrist break that is done slower to make a control or a drop. Do the technique fast and you snap the wrist. Now in Koto gaeshi, whichever of the variants you use, you are likely to grab the back of the hand as you apply the controlling/breaking force. This is more foolproof than hitting the hand with your fist. As a result I feel that Koto gaeshi is of itself a better technique for the same purpose.

    Now whichever one of these you are doing, where is this hand that is free for you to grab that is up near the eyeline in height (or do you mean tyhat is the direction of your strike? In the latter case I see you breaking the hand, not the wrist)? I can't see myself doing this with any hand that is holding me on anything but a very compliant partner with a loose grip. So I'd have to wallop the guy first (which can bring us back to morote uchi uke). I also wouldn't do Koto gaeshi with a hand that was above the ribs/at clavicle height - a personal habit based on experience of where certain techniques can be done against non compliant partners.

    It is the sort of technique I could have fun playing with, but one that would fail my practical technique guidelines. :cool: it shows to me a step in the right direction (and is infinitely better than the back hand is supporting the elbow) but needs to be measured against a practicality matrix. :D
     
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Ah yes, how to get behind your attacker without them noticing. Jump in the air, do a three point turn over the top of their head while not drawing attention to yourself by emitting a loud Kiai. You've got to love some of the stuff that used to be taught. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks for the comments, but I think you aren't picturing the application correctly. It is exactly the same as koto gaeshi except instead of projecting the opponent to unbalance off the edge of their foot, their own hand is driven into their eyes. (The opponent is driven to be unbalanced to their rear.)

    In kotogaeshi there is a point where the second hand (both hands) are applying leverage onto the hand/wrist of the opponent, in the wrist break this is where the back hand is driven through the opponent's hand/wrist, ensuring the break. This is not a punch, the punch is the result of the follow through after breaking the wrist.

    The other hand continues the motion driving the opponent's own fingers and broken wrist into his eyes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Now I am having trouble picturing it. I think I know what you mean but now I see less point in doing anything with the hand at all! It just creates an unnecessary extra faff if you are doing what I think you are doing and I'm not sure it would be adrenaline and pressure tolerant :Alien: Can you post any photo or video? :Angel:

    This may also be linked to the fact that these days I do Koto Gaeshi as a straight pushdown - like an old man getting up from an armchair putting weight on the arm rests - rather than a wrist twist. The pushdown version works on the back of the hand. I don't think I've ever done a version where both hands are applying leverage - one hand controls, the other applies force - if both hands go together then in that instance the force applied is less, not more, since the arm will also move as well as the wrist! I've seen one or two Aikido groups doing that, much to the tut tutting of my old Aiki teachers ( I seem to recall that Pierre Chassang said of one very long standing Aikido practitioner in this country "he is doing something, I do not know what it is, but it is not Aiki").
     
  19. pauli

    pauli mr guillotine

    don't forget - it's crucial that you land in a perfect horse stance.
     
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    You had it easy. In Shotokan you have to land in back stance - uneven weight distribution. :D
     

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