MMA = Street Effective Techniques?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Thomas, Dec 21, 2004.

  1. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    My take for you Thomas

    You should be learning some very good safe basic techniques which are really key and pivitol on the street these are:

    Striking

    Sparring - your application
    Jab
    Cross
    Hook
    Uppercut
    Low leg kick
    Push Kick
    Defences to all above + the actual attacks
    Being able to keep someone on the ground by kicking techniques

    Clinch

    Elbows
    Knees
    Control in clinch
    Manipulation of the attackers limbs
    Throws
    Slams
    Sparring for familiarty and defence

    Ground work

    Guard (only used if needed)
    Reverse (to let you get up)
    Defence (stop you getting ground n pounded)
    Getting up (stop you getting head kicked or punch on way up)

    Stamina

    Fitness
    Co-ordination


    These are all real world key elements of street fighting (from my experience)
    Ability to use your techniques whilst resisting attacks
    Ability to drop someone fast.

    The street side is a by product of having a good standup game which is key in MMA clubs - not to be confused with Sombo, Judo, Wrestling or BJJ which are grappling only (depending on club) but the above is key pivitol street defence techniques which are bread and butter ones in MMA.

    Views?
     
  2. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    I agree Sonshu,

    The ground in self defense is totally different to the ground in competition (IMO) due to the highly technical aspect of submissions. While a ground game is a vital component, i think it is very unlikely that you will have to defend against arm bars, triangles etc as unless you know what you are doing they are very hard to apply.

    Therefore I would suggest that for self defense, ground work should concentrate on, defense against ground and pound, regaining your feet safely and a few basic easy to applysecary. submissions to control your opponent if needed.
     
  3. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I think it's far simpler and more effective to just learn an all-inclusive groundfighting system (well, as all-inclusive as safety will allow) and spar against each other to get used to applying techniques against difficult opponents and defending against them - even if we'd be unlikely to encounter armbars etc on the street. I hear what you're saying Taliar but I think you're entering dangerous territory if you train under the assumption that your opponent will be crap.
     
  4. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    I'm not assuming that my opponent will be crap - I'm just pointing out that for me, in a none ground based art, who wants to expand my training to become more well rounded, certain sacrifices need to be made.

    I train because I enjoy training and like my style and club etc, however I acknowledge that it is worthwhile to study things beyond the scope of that. However time is limited and needs to be prioritised.

    Based on the fact that I live in a fairly peaceful area, have little interest in going to the pub etc and am 6'3" and 215 lbs I feel that I am at a lower risk of being attacked.

    Based on the time available to me, I know I don't at the moment have enough time to become good in all areas of the ground game and to maintain those skills without dropping other aspects of my training, therefore I try to concentrate on what I find to be useful. Basing this on the fact that if an opponent knows what to do on the ground he would probably beat me and I don't have the rescources to change that at the moment, I try and play to my strength which is standup (and to a lesser extent clinch) and concentrate on defense and returning to my areas of strength when on the ground, (al la Liddel etc)
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Great list and I think I would agree on this as a basic list of techniques for unarmed self defence. I also like the concept/pholospohpy side you mention.

    I would add
    Concept/Philosophy side:
    Awareness/Avoidance practice
    Legal aspects (incl. pre-emptive striking, use of weapons, levels of force, duty to retreat, etc.)
    Dealing with surprise/adrenaline/levels of awareness
    Ways of attracting/notifying help


    Other Techniques/ blocks of instruction
    Basic defences vs common weapons (sticks, knives, bottles, etc.)
    Basic use of common/improvised weapons
    Firearms awareness, use, and defence strategies
    Basic techniques for dealing with multiple attackers (and lots of practice for this)
    Familiarization with different terrains, climates, and clothing (especially in a 4 seasons environment)


    I think the basic techniques you listed should be common in any (good) MMA school (and should be in any martial arts/self dfence school period). I think to make for more realistic self defence, one has to look to the "rules of the street" and modify your "school's rules of fighting" to them. Any martial arts school/system should be able to do this, but the procedure needs to be consistant, well planned, focused, and implemented. Having a 5 minute discussion on the topics once a month isn't enough... there needs to be training dedicated to it.
     
  6. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Oh I agree on the legal and psychological side which is covered on the MMA side mostly - just focussed more on the nuts and bolts of self defence techniques etc.

    Firearms is a no go in the uk as they just never (touch wood) come up. I think the list is really a direct rip out of the pages of a textbook MMA school where nothing needs to be changed and it is all applicable in a street fight.

    Interestingly enough there is a clip on another forum of Stump (trained compliantly I will say) being slammed, mounted and arm barred in about 5 seconds tops. So with training it can be done but it is less ideal than a good hard cross.

    So do we all feel these are good core basic self defence techniques?
     
  7. Jim Kelly

    Jim Kelly New Member


    I've posted nothing but personal experiences, skills and techniques.

    What have you posted? Who are you? What do you know?
    Apparently Nothing !

    You come off as child who can't explain anything about the martial arts, so you accuse others of knowing nothing to allow yourself to feel better about your ignorance.
     
  8. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Grimjack - Jim Kelly

    Please refrain from personal attacks - if you have a problem with each other either take it off the forum or speak to a Moderator.

    Melanie
    Topic Moderator
     
  9. Jim Kelly

    Jim Kelly New Member

    I believe in using whatever works in the situation. If your on the ground the only way to make a hook punch work well enough to nock out the opponent is by being in the mount position where you can get full torso rotation to add body weight to your strike if you are on the guard position you can wrap your legs around the enemies torso or hips and pull your body weight into your punches and strikes. I'd rather nock someone out standing up to; it’s usually faster and to the point, although making him pay for attacking you by prolonging his pain is also highly enjoyable.
     
  10. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I think just about everyone on the forum would do it standing up, sometimes you do end up on the floor and at times you do it standing up.

    Just having the tools to do both is better than not having them.
     
  11. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Taliar - my mistake, I assumed from the way you typed your post that you were talking about groundfighting in general rather than your specific needs. I train from the outset to be an all-round fighter, whereas you train to cover weaknesses; both are equally valid I think. But I think that if you're actually doing MMA, you shouldn't start only learning to defend against attacks that you think we'll face on the street, since grappling will actually be quite a large part of your arsenal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2005
  12. Origami Itto

    Origami Itto Walking Paths

    My contribution to the thread:

    Against an untrained person: Any basic jujitsu (i'm not saying judo because you usually follow them down) throw will end the fight, just make sure that you slam their head really hard in the concrete or break their elbow. If you have good control, hurt or break their back on your knee. Break joints in general.

    Against an untrained person: Any good boxing strike or combo is likely to end the fight with a broken jaw. If not, hit them some more. Elbows are allowed. Low kick and front (thai) kick will at least make them think twice.

    No need for complex techniques. No triangles please. If you go down get up first and kick. Requirements: some good training and adrenaline rush control. Finish the fight fast.

    Against a trained fighter: You will both fight dirty, technique will help here i think. Finish the fight fast.

    Against a PCP loaded guy, fighter or not: Choke. Armbar and break both arms -> less dangerous now. Hit him until he stops moving.

    Against multiple opponents: Use simple technique to create an opportunity and run. If you knock one out with one punch that's better.

    Against multiple trained fighters loaded with PCP: Tough luck, you might lose that one. Try to be Mirko CroCop or similar.

    Use tools. Kick balls. Be like water.
     
  13. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    Timmy Boy -

    Yeah I agree, I would like to spend more time on my ground work, however any more evenings spent training would result in missus-fu being used against me against which I have no defence. :D :D
     
  14. Leo_E_49

    Leo_E_49 Valued Member

    Hear hear, some of us have lives outside of MA. I personally find that twice a week is all that I can manage with my studies. Sometimes once a week is as much as I can afford (dreaded exams :D).
     
  15. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Origami, a judo throw is a ju jitsu throw. The only reason you voluntarily follow them down is to score an ippon by pin or submission if the throw itself wasn't enough. This is because striking isn't allowed in judo at all, so you can't finish them off by, say, stamping on their head in a judo match, but in real life it's a different ball game and judoka know this. We may not train in stamping heads or running away but these things are obvious and we're not stupid.

    The other reason you would follow someone down in a judo match is because the throw doesn't go completely cleanly. This may seem sloppy in comparison to an elegant ju jutsu throw, but that's because uke is actually fighting tori back. Throwing a co-operative opponent is far far easier.

    The point I think you're missing about triangles etc is the main reason why groundfighting is considered an essential part of your training in MMA. Just because you WANT to stand up and knock him out, or throw him to the floor cleanly, doesn't mean that you will. You could end up on the ground for any number of reasons: you slip on some beer on the floor of the club; you trip over a curb; you lose your balance in some other way; he floors you; you floor him and he pulls you down; etc. When that happens, you're going to want to know how to do things like triangle chokes so that you can end the fight quickly when the opportunity presents itself.

    MMA is not the same as BJJ. BJJ advocates groundfighting above all else because most people don't understand it, thus making them easy prey, whereas MMA includes it as a large and essential part of a wider curriculum. I think this is an important point because people often tend to clump our arguments together in their minds into one voice, when in fact they're quite different.

    I'm also curious as to how you intend to break someone's jaw with a boxing combo, since this rarely (if ever) happens in full contact competition.

    A final point I disagree with is your assumption that untrained people can't fight. Even Mike Tyson has been beaten in streetfights with untrained thugs before. You shouldn't underestimate the skill and psychology that some people develop from simply getting into a lot of fights.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2005
  16. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

  17. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Exactly - if you choose to follow them down rather than just losing your balance, this is for tactical reasons specific to the sport of judo.
     
  18. Origami Itto

    Origami Itto Walking Paths

    I know all that, didn't mean to offend judokas, if anything i'd say that they throw harder. What i was referring to is following the throw as an automated reaction. Also said "usually". Blame olympic judo for people thinking like that.

    An (average) untrained person is a much easier target for a nice clean throw, whether they are resisting or not (also see last comment). Btw the main reason that jujitsu people do not follow a throw to the ground is that we are supposed to break one or more joints while throwing (or, to be more precise, while the thrown person is landing - never practiced in training for obvious reasons, but most jujitsu practitioners are very aware of the technique for the same reasons), not tactical considerations.

    Against an untrained person you will most likely be able to stand up. I didn't consider terrain variations in my post, just assumed concrete. You might fight someone on gravel, mud or shallow water - death by pin :). There might also be a brick, beer bottle or knife nearby but i didn't want to get into that.

    Aware and agree.

    Well, no gloves, you are trained to strike, they are not trained to absorb strikes. I said "it's likely" not "certain". There is just a higher possibility of that happening against an untrained person rather that in the ring with a boxer. You can still just knock them out - again much more likely than in the ring.

    Of course an otherwise untrained thug might have 50 fights experience - some of them to death even. For purposes of discussing what if... scenarios i would personally consider this a trained fighter. Also, in many cases a fighter's competition habits may take over (example: kicking the thigh or ribs, instead of the nuts or kicking the knee in). Like i mentioned, i had to simplify like we all do here. I wasn't assuming that people not trained in martial arts can't fight; i merely called people who can't fight "untrained". I commented on fighting a trained fighter on teh street in a very short part of my post, no reason to get into that analysis. Along with previous comments please bear in mind that there was an underlying sarcasm in my post - this subject has been discussed a lot of times and i wanted to point out that it is not as complex as it seems, nor does it really need an in-depth analysis, even though this is entertaining and very forum-like :).
     
  19. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    How a person reacts in a real fight would probably be very different. In judo randori I don't have my guard up because there's no point, but in MMA I do. My brain tells me what kind of situation I'm dealing with and I adapt.

    A throw has huge damage potential even if you don't break a joint in the process, through the impact of landing, which is why IMO it's far more important to learn ones that can be practiced safely on the mat. A judoka throws you onto the concrete and you'll know about it. Also I think that, again, you're assuming too much about untrained people in a fight.

    You don't know that you'd be able to stand up. If you're on the floor, and you don't know how to fight on the ground, you'd better pray. That's what it comes down to. This isn't an obscure hypothetical situation, it's a common occurrence in unarmed combat that a martial artist should be prepared for.

    The bones of an untrained person are no different to that of a boxer or a thai boxer, it's just that the untrained person will probably react differently to being hit because he isn't so used to it. Also, gloves don't affect the power of the hit to any significant degree - they merely protect the puncher's hands from damage and the victim's face from cuts.

    So are you telling me that your main objective in learning martial arts is to beat people who are crap fighters anyway?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2005
  20. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    Just a quick point about kicks to the knees since Origami brought them up:

    On Tuesday in sparring I took a lot of hard low kicks to the side of my knee. Anyone who's read my posts on the H&F forum knows that my knees are in horrible condition... but the kicks didn't do anything to them. Why? I wasn't standing as stiff as a board, my legs were bent. In a fight I'd rather kick someone in the thigh than waste my time kicking one of the strongest joints in the human body (Unless they stand with their leg perfectly straight and put all their weight on it. which isn't likely).
     

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