Tyson isn't an ATG IMO. He had amazing speed and skill, but he was short and ruled through intimidation and he himself has admitted that he would try to break a guys will from the start, which is a smart move. When he got to a much taller and longer armed Douglas who used a consistant jab and boxed beautifully that night, I think people realized that maybe cruiserweight might have been better for him, but who the hell even cares about that weight class or even knows what it is aside from more hardcore fans? I think of the top HW's of the time such as Holyfield, Lewis, etc all either did beat him, or would have. Only IMO of course.
I disagree. you don't know that. look at roy jones jr, tarver owned him, then the rest did. it is about the fear, until the first one wins, so there is no fear afterwards thing is, when I was watching roy jones jr, when he didn't lose a single fight, I was like, why can't they see how weak is he. then tarver owned him. everyone then owned him as well. it is a matter of, you look at all his previous opponents, see how weak they are, take the fear, lose same you can say about the boxers you mentioned. if someone would own them, the rest would own them as well
Well... Lewis did beat him, and so did Holyfield, so I do know that much actually. Tyson was and has always been a headcase. Your argument also holds no water since Lewis lost twice and his KO loss to Rahman was a very big shot... no one else ever "owned" Lewis, he came back and toasted Hasim. His other loss was also avenged by stoppage. Some fighters can come back. Tyson is and was overrated. Jones? He had some good fights, but was an athletic talent. Once he slowed down just that little bit, he had no solid fundementals to fall back on. Many of these guys winning in multiple weight classes is a joke. Do you really think that Jones beating Ruiz was a great accomplishment? Ruiz is a joke of a fighter. They picked him to win a belt, not because he was the best in the division. This is not saying I don't think Roy wasn't an incredible talent, but of a different type. With a good solid defense he likely wouldn't have been KO'd the way he was. Also keep in mind that Tarver is no slouch and the guy can punch... the first rule is protect yourself at ALL times... Roy's arrogance is what caused his first loss and then downfall.
it passed 6 years since tyson's first loss. holyfield had enough time to get ready as for lewis, some can advance after the loss, some can't. by the way, did you ever see tyson's training log how about 2000 sit ups everyday 500 press ups everyday you get permanently exhausted the sooner you start, the sooner you end. that is why muay thai fighters end fighting when they are 20
By the way, here is his amateur record: Amateur highlights 1981 Jun --- --- KO 1 U.S. Jr. Olympic Champion Heavyweight Nov? Ernie Bennet L 3 Rhode Island 1982 Jun Jonathon Littles KO 2 U.S. Jr. Olympic Tourney, Heavyweight Salem, OR Jun Don Cozad KO 1 U.S. Jr. Olympic Tourney, Heavyweight Salem, OR Jun 26 Kelton Brown KO 1 U.S. Jr. Olympic Tourney, Heavyweight Salem, OR --- Kilbert Pierce W 3 USA/ABF Region 1 Tourney Boston, MA Dec 12 Al Evans LK 3 Binghampton, NY 1983 Mar Andrew Stokes KO 3 National Golden Gloves Super Heavy Albuquerque, NM Mar Mike Bardwell KO 1 National Golden Gloves Super Heavy Albuquerque, NM Mar Warren Thompson W National Golden Gloves Super Heavy Albuquerque, NM Mar 26 Craig Payne L 3 National Golden Gloves Super Heavy Albuquerque, NM Aug 14 Olian Alexander W Ohio State Fair National Invitational, 200 lbs Aug 27 --- --- --- US (Under 19) Champion +201-lb Gold Medalist Dec 10 Kimmuel Odum L DQ 2 United States Championship Tournament 1984 --- Orbit Pough KO 1 US (Under 19) Champion +201-lb Gold Medalist --- Derek Isaman W 3 National Golden Gloves --- Richard Johnson KO National Golden Gloves --- Johnny Williams KO National Golden Gloves --- Rocky Pepeli KO National Golden Gloves --- Jonathan Littles KO 1 National Golden Gloves 201-lb Gold Medalist Jun 8 Avery Rawls W 3 United States Olympic Trials 201-lb Fort Worth, TX Jun 9 Henry Milligan KO 2 United States Olympic Trials Fort Worth, TX Jun 10 Henry Tillman L 3 United States Olympic Trials, Silver Fort Worth, TX Jul 6 Olian Alexander [?] United States Olympic Box-offs 201-lb Las Vegas, NV Jul 7 Henry Tillman L 3 United States Olympic Box-offs 201-lb Las Vegas, NV As you can see, he wasn't some super special fighter in the amateurs either. He was marketed well. His age and power made him an attraction... an attraction that lost to a fighter who made a lot of people rich when he was a 43-1 underdog lol.
Here are some of Lewis' highlights Record: 94-11 Heavyweight Gold Medalist at the 1983 Junior World Championships. Canadian Super Heavyweight representative at the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles. Results: Defeated Mohammad Yousuf (Pakistan) RSC 3 Lost to Tyrell Biggs (United States) 0-5 Super Heavyweight Silver Medalist at the 1985 World Cup Championships in Seoul, South Korea. Super Heavyweight Gold Medalist at the 1986 Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh, Scotland. Lost to Petar Stoymenov of Bulgaria on a 3-2 decision in his opening round match at the 1986 World Championships in Reno. Super Heavyweight Silver Medalist at the 1987 Pan-American Games in Indianapolis, losing to Jorge Luis Gonzalez of Cuba. Super Heavyweight Gold Medalist at the 1987 North American Championships in Toronto, defeating Jorge Luis Gonzalez. Super Heavyweight Gold Medalist at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, South Korea. Results: Defeated Chrispine Odera (Kenya) RSC 2 Defeated Ulli Kaden (East Germany) RSC 1 Defeated Janusz Zarenkiewicz (Poland) walk-over Defeated Riddick Bowe (United States) RSC 2
thing that you did 3000 crunches a night didn't make you a world champion, did it. but that kinda training exhausts you permanently. tyson's last loss was due to a knee injury I am not interested in ali fights, that is why, to me, he is not the greatest. I dunno if tyson is the greatest, but def is a lot more amazing then ali, ma opinion
Tyson's career went downhill once Cus D'Amato passed pretty much. I've always had the opinion his career went down hill due to emotional hardship, ignorance and bad decisions due to his youth. Intimidation and physical superiority, while it isn't the fineness part of the Boxing game, is still part of the game and he did it well. If you're going to compare him to other more technical fighters then of course he's not going to seem like a "great." I honestly think the Boxing game is missing what Tyson brought to it. The level of competition I will agree didn't seem as intense though. As far as Roy Jones Jr. goes, I think some opinions passed are a little lacking of experience w/ boxing. Again, not taking the mental aspect of the game into account. Edit: And as for Ali . . . . between what that man had to deal with, the class of competition in his day, and what he did for Boxing . . . if you don't consider him as one of the greats then I think you're lacking as far as how to generate a decent opinion on a fighter : P.
Watching Ali is like drinking a fine wine - better with age. RJJ is absolutely one of teh best ever to step in there. He didn't just win a world title he DOMINATED the competition. The problem was that as a reflex fighter he had a finite lifespan. FOr me the increse in weight then the drop was the end for him; he should have left the game after taking the HW crown. Greatest HW of all time - Joe Louis takes it for me. First of the "modern" style boxers with tremendous power and killer instinct.
Skill, record or talent aside Tyson had "something". Intangible really. Part aggression, part being slightly unhinged, part charisma (in an odd sort of way), part innocence. Dunno really. As good a boxer as he was Lennox never had that "something" for me. I don't get a buzz watching Lewis hit a punch bag for example. And that for me counts for something at least. You watch Tyson at his peak and he had a quality that trascended just being good in the square ring.
Reminded me of Liston in that respect [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0p0pIP6wpQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0p0pIP6wpQ[/ame]
One thing I've very pro in martial arts is building "intent" in people. People can be as skilled as they like but without "intent" behind what they do it's gonna be a bit flat in some way. Tyson had intent by the boatload. And I like that.
He once said he threw his punches "with bad intentions" - I liked that phrase so much I blatantly stole it and still use it in teaching! It's the difference in many ways between being a boxer and being a champion boxer - Michael Dokes could give Tyson everything he needed and wanted as a sparring partner, but could never quite get it together "for real" when it was fight time
^ This. His strength lay in the fact his mindset was not towards getting into a boxing point scoring match. He was there to knock the other guy out with "bad intentions" like you said. If you guys watch closely, a lot of things Mike did was different from the conventional ways of boxing. For example in his peek a boo stance he often squared up to his opponent instead of the traditional left or right exposure. He got away with it because he was so good at getting up close and landing those hooks, uppercuts and straight rights. Later on in his career he had less head movement and got tagged more often. But he has always had that one punch knock out ability though.. Even as some of the other boxing skills kinda faded. He is a born puncher like some of his former coaches have mentioned.
Punch is always the last thing to go on a fighter. Personal bias, Holyfield is my hero in boxing and my absolute favorite. Definitely a HoF runner, possibly a case for a HWGOAT too
The Peek a Boo stance is supposed to be square to your opponent. I would say Mike Tyson used a true Peek a Boo style of fighting, other guys modify it or do something different by blading their bodies. I also don't think the intent behind his punches are what made them the most effective. I think the intention behind what he wanted to do in the ring with his punches had the biggest effect on his training, which had the effect we're talking about now in the ring. How many boxers do you see hitting the weights hard (dude loved squatting!) or hitting the bag with such intensity for such a long duration? The man was physically superior then a lot of his opponents in strength and explosive endurance. A lot of guys would gas throwing so many power punches like he did. It's all speculation though : P
