Men, Women, and Martial Arts

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by 47MartialMan, Jun 29, 2011.

  1. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    It seems very unlikely to me but I'll take you at your word that you have been able to implement them.

    I can't see it even remotely working unless the opponent is placing almost all their weight on the target leg.

    How to you propose they are best implemented?
     
  2. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    You misunderstand - I have never successfully done one while sparing. In the same way I have never successfully done a a hook heal to the temple. Not flexible enough. I have however had them done to me in sparing and they work. Opponent mid weight between front and back. Set up with a high punching combination. Drop and sweep front leg. if you are super coordinated set up with a high roundhouse kick then follow with revers broom handle low.

    Its a tool - like a heal hook to the temple - if you can get it to work for you, its a very good tool.
     
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  3. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Fair enough. You said you no longer used them so I assumed you at some point had and had success with them.

    I can see it - on reflection - if your opponent is back peddling from your hands or their weight is coming up as they panic under fire.
    The likelihood of pulling it off from a kick (that is checked) or a feint that ellicits a check seems infinitesimally small. If the kick lands I can't see it working either.

    If they are well balanced in stance or in their footwork (as most trained strikers are) I can't see it having the effect of taking both your feet away and definitely not the way it was shown in the video... And when it doesn't work you are going to potentially eat a knee, a shin or get sprawled on and find yourself defending backmount or side ride whilst eating punches, Darced, neck cranked etc etc. Doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

    If anyone ever pulls this off against a competent striker I'll buy them a beer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    My advise was to try it out for yourself and see. the proof of any application is in the eating. but if a closed mind works for you that's great. :)
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The only rationale I ever really gave much credence to with these sorts of low spinning sweeps was from Combat Hapkido.
    My instructor at the time basically said they were a last ditch thing to try if you were already going down. A sort of reversal type thing where you go with it and spin.
    I think though, these days, I'd prefer a more BJJ approach of trying to avoid a dominant pin, maybe pulling guard and attempting a technical stand-up.
     
  6. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    the sweep requires you to set up the opponent and be in balance to execute it effectively. If you are already going down you will not have the balance to execute, much better to pull guard or sacrifice throw if you have opportunity.
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I mean quite honestly that sort of sweep is very much in the "train for fun and attribute development but don't use it for real" category.
     
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  8. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Well my mind is open, which is why I'm asking questions and hypothesising very charitably about how it might be implemented.

    Whilst my mind is open, it's not so open that my brain is going to fall out. My critical thinking and direct lived experience prohibits me from taking the sweep as demonstrated in the video as functional. I doubt I will try it but I'm certainly open to hearing about how it can be utilised... Although you seem unable to provide any detail as to how it can. Despite claiming it as such a great technique you claim to have never used it. I can only conclude that you don't actually understand it and can't use it. I doubt that is your fault as it looks almost impossible to use and to be fundamentally flawed. I'm wondering if you have even seen it used or are just theorising given that you originally implied you used to use it yourself.

    Saying it works and to try is essentially asking it to be taken on faith as if it doesn't work the person is expected to believe the fault lies with them alone and not the technique. It's the exact thing we discussed in the kung Fu beginners thread. Also, if I pressed you for the level of detail you are seemingly unable to provide in person, in your class, you'd likely think I had an attitude problem and become as passive aggressive and defensive as you have online. So my question is how does that fit into your perspective of it being the student's responsibility to ask questions to discern the purpose of techniques and the buck stopping with them if they don't get it or misunderstand the training? Seems to me there is a disparity between what you practice and what you preach.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I can *maybe* see an argument for it as a kick counter in that you will be attacking one leg when you sweep...not one I would recommend though
     
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  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter



    Of course at about 1:40 here you see it....
     
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Best use of that sweep I've seen is in semi-contact kickboxing where you can see the other guy chambering a kick. Duck under and sweep the supporting leg.
    There's also a kyokushin variant which doesn't duck down so low but uses similar mechanics and could maybe be related to Andy Hug's low kakato geri.
    Shokei Matsui does quite a lot of them. Again when he sees someone loading up a kick and then goes for the supporting leg.
     
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  12. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    That is one of the three ways I can currently see it being used (think I mentioned it in my first response and the other two further up the page) but they all rely on massive technical flaws in the opponent, can be more powerfully, safely, and efficiently be achieved by other means (foot sweep, dumps, low line kicking) and the risk reward ratio, probability of working and window of implementation seems highly scant.

    If applied as in the video, which was shockingly bad, you'd have zero chance of the demonstrated effect imo.

    I'm open to being shown otherwise.
     
  13. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I would put it in the "never say never" category. Along with other applications like spinning back-fists. It is high risk. There are other techniques that are lower risk and just as effective. but the fact that people seldom apply them can give them the element of surprise. Certainly like spinning back-fists is useful to train against them every once in a while so you remember what they look like, how to respond effectively, and don't get caught out.
     
  14. john_newman

    john_newman New Member

    That Discussion is really informative i really learnt a lot. I am very new to training and i am not sure which style should i choose. I read an article on elitesports, from where i bought my training stuff. Please check this out and let me know if this is any good.
    Steps To Choose Right Martial Art Style for Yourself
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award


    Why did you buy training gear, if you don't know what training style to do?

    Mr John NewMan, who is a John, and a New Man here....

    This wouldn't happen to be your website would it?

    With some badly veiled attempt at self publicity!
     
    axelb likes this.
  16. john_newman

    john_newman New Member

    Rash guards and Pants i think is common for about all the training sports and that is what I bought and yes it not my website. I can only feel sorry for you if you feel so.
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    The article was only posted on the website yesterday, and by luck you read it on the first day, and them shared it here...... That's very lucky John!

    What about the article did you agree with, and what did you disagree with?
     
    axelb likes this.
  18. john_newman

    john_newman New Member


    That article's link comes to my inbox and that is how I read it first hand. I am not sure why are you interrogating me for putting a link there. Is that against the policies of this forum or what?
    I am more into BJJ as it involves more technique to execute the moves and I am a tall guy with only 155 pounds of weight so I guess BJJ will be the best choice, to begin with, and then move to some combat training like kickboxing and Muay Thai.

    Your suggestion will highly be entertained if backed with some good reasons. please share some advice for what I should go first?
     
  19. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    ned, Morik and john_newman like this.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award


    Generally when people post articles etc, in order to stop people using it for free advertising, they are requested to explain a little about what they liked or disliked about it.
     
    ned likes this.

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