Talhoffer again... Back to the basic wrist lock - catching the attackers point-down stab with the left hand & twisting it back, with the flat of the blade against the back of the forearm..... meanwhile stepping through, sweeping the lead leg and stabbing the attackers chest! Louie
Isn't the idea with Fiori at least (and most other medieval masters) that unarmed wrestling is the foundation, and that techniques in dagger and swords flow on from there, hence the huge amount of wrestling that takes place in weapons work.
Yes. It is most obvious in Fiore, at least. IMHO it's in many ways a very pedagogical approach to fighting. When it comes to the huge amount of wresteling in the weapons work in Fiore, It could be for 3 reasons: A: Because Fiore was a huge fella, good at wresteling. For a strong and heavy person, beeing able to "shoot" the opponent, seize the centre, then throw, break, disarm is a very effective approach. The fact tha Fiore actually states in his prelude that in order to be a good fighter, you need to be big and strong, supports this theory. B: Because most people -in war, at least in Europe were so armed that cutting and thrusting rarely inflicted much damage, but throwing/breaking/dislocating works allmost as efficiantly vs. a dude in full harness, as vs. a dude unarmed. C: Because Unarmed and armed actually is "two sides of the same case" (as we say in Norway), and that it's easier (and safer) to drill in principles unarmed, then moving to weapons than to start with weaponry. The fact that Fiore's manual was made when he was an old man, meant to be a guide to later generations of the Marqi of Ferraras knights, and/or his allies after Fiore was dead, supports this wiew. It could of course allso be all A, B and C
Thanks for the info Louie I have a similar sized dagger which seems more natural in the downward grip and it's quite heavy. Of course then the weight of the dagger (and gauntlet) gives more power and impact to punch through. The downward grip can be used in a hooking manner too. For instance we would also slice up diagonally from the waist to the throat and then hook downward behind the neck. Standing fist to the face and stepping on the foot at the same time, sure to offbalance. Nice.
Hi, Quick question, how can you reverse your hold on a dagger? and "flip" it back? For example your holding the blade in the "normal fashion" blade toward your partner, and you wanted to reverse it so you can do a forearm slash, or upward cut, or to block. I've read you "roll" the dagger on your fingers but I don't get it
I take it you mean switching from the normal point-up to the point-down 'icepick' position.... Rolling the weapon on the fingers would depend on it's weight, pommel thickness, etc,. Practice rolling a pen from tip-up to tip-down using just your fingers ( moving it between your middle & fore-finger to make the switch) Then try it with a practice dagger before you risk your fingers Personally when changing grips I hold the weapon in the 'Hat' position - (See illustration) holding the blade with my left hand allows me to change my right hand grip without the risk of dropping the knife! Louie
A basic wrist lock to arm lock Talhoffer again... A basic wrist lock/arm lock - this time catching the attacker's point-down stab with the left hand & twisting it back, the right arm comes under his elbow and with the dagger's pommel, hooks onto his arm to complete an arm lock. meanwhile stepping through adds pressure to the lock - adding an inside sweep to the lead leg will send him to the floor! Louie
I tried flipping the blade in the air and catching it to switch , but it seemed too clumsy and slow, gripping the blade with two hands makes the switch much easier but I am trying to learn using only one hand. Switching between middle and fore-finger is I take for lighter, and slimer blades so different kinds of blades require different "methods" to switch obviously. Thanks I was doing it completely wrong
I would listen to Louie. Switching the blade with one hand is a bit like twirling a gun. Looks good but is damn dangerous. regards koyo
I switch blade-grip when I'm disengaged, and you can do it while holding the tip with the left hand (no problem on a rondelldagger, especially if you're wearing gauntlets). Alternately, you can have your hand(s) on your back as you approach, so the enemy doesn't know which hand that will be holding the dagger, and which way it will be presented. Flipping from ice pick to "sword"-grip onehanded and while engaged is somthing I've never tried in sparring, actually.
This one is allso shown in Fiore, it's one of the 5 examples of upper keys that Colin Richards shows in his newest book on Fiore wresteling and dagger.
WE have techniques which hook the weapon onto the arm ,neck or leg. Below a version where the hand is trapped and the tsuka (pommel) hooks over to apply a lock. Really painfull. regards koyo
Fiore allso use hooks and locks that incorporates the dagger. The most violent one is this one (I allmost broke my girlfriends wrists, just demonstrating it slowly) http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g16r_4.jpg Here is one shown as a counter to a twohand block-attempt. http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g40r_3.jpg
Hi Koyo.... Yes I've been caught with a few of those on the bone of the wrist while playing fall guy at seminars for my former 'sifu' - Here's a medieval example of using a dagger to hook the leg.... Louie
... and you all know what I'm about to post now: Fiore allso shows this technique (He actually shows it in his short-stick-part, but as I wrote in the fan-thread there's a lot of crossovers in Fiores manual (this is pre-print, so why bother showing all weapons doing the same techniques...) http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g10v_2.jpg
Hi Stolenbjorn... I've posted your jpeg anyway as it has an interesting finger-thrusting method - aimed at the arteries (or in some Eastern methods, the knock-out pressure point meridians) Louie
Actually, it looks more like a web-hand strike to the trachea, which is just as (if not more) effective with that leg hook. And damned if that technique that Louie's JPEG shows isn't in the system I train and teach in too. Omote gata do the technique armed and ura gata do it armed with a blade, just like that.
Using a jo you hook the forward leg and as you draw him off balance strike with the rear of the jo to his head. Would look just like the picture in post 56. There are numerous technique for locking with the jo and I bet they all exist in longsword and dagger. We also use the web hand strike in severe techniques to knock the attacker's head back if we have not unbalanced him correctly. Similar techniques, I see a pattern developing here. regards koyo Locking the neck jo technique.
koyo: I didn't know that japaneese taught european half-swording with sticks :love: Here's a picture of roughly the same, only in full harness and with longsword instead of sticks (From Fiore, of course; several others are far more competent in german systems than I, so I keep to what I seem to know best amongst us ): http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl25.jpg
