Me test cutting.

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Cudgel, Dec 7, 2006.

  1. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    nothing fancy three short clips of me doing a zornhau to langenort.
    I figure since I had the clips I should share them and maybe get back into being active here and maybe spark and interesting thread.
    The other forum i posted them in caused a rather interesting discussion.

    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1516835281
    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1516839982
    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1516841985

    Enjoy watching my slay the vile soda bottle. :love:
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Interesting.
    The footwork and finishing stance seem non existant.
    Though from what cutting and sword work I've seen has all been of the Japanese variety. Perhaps the two systems are drastically different in that respect? It also appears that this style of sword strikes are an arms only movement - compared to what I was expecting where it's a whole body movement in many other styles.

    Then again - the bottle was cleaved - so perhaps it doesn't matter?

    For some reason though it looks as if you're rearing your head away when you attack with the sword. Maybe it's just a reaction from trying to avoid the water?

    What is the weight of that sword?
    What style of swordwork is that?

    (BTW thanks for posting :) )
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2006
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I liked the sword (is it some sort of 2h.messer?)
    To use italian/my terms, it seems as you cut from posta di donna to posta longa, or a thrust-cut, as I put it; where you either cut or stab your opponent depending on where the tip/edge lands.

    Slipthejab: you can cut more draw-cut'ish stuff too and follow the manuals, but that is a cut with shorter range.

    The bottles... do they allways behave like that, or does it happen that you manage what we call a clean cut; where the lower half is left on the base with water in it?

    Nice to see what you look like, btw :D
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    hmm.. interesting.
    So would the cut shown here on a water battle be similar to any of the cuts shown on the ARMA vids section where he manages to get the tip of his blade to the opponents throat/wrist at the very first part of his opponent entry? :confused:
     
  5. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I'm not sure which videos you refer to. I think mr. Cudgel should answer for his stance (personally, I feel that he could use a little more active shoulders to get a little more force into the cut, but who am I to speak; if I post some of my cutting on the net, there's probably plenty to pick on there as well :eek: )

    As for the thrust-cuts contra the draw-cuts; imagine cutting outwards instead of downwards, so that you end up in this stance http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/images/postaLunga.jpg instead of this stance http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/images/postaDiDenti.jpg

    The first way of cutting have greater range, and if your point lands on top of the target(s arm/shoulder, etc.), you cut him as you finish the forewards thrust, but if the point lands in the target(s torso/head), you continue cutting/stabbing forewards, depending on what the target wears.
     
  6. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Bottles tend to be bouncy, especially if they're REALLY full. I have yet to use one that didn't bounce when I cut it. Larger bottles, like a 4-6 litre laundry detergent bottle will tend to stay put when you cut them, because they have more mass. Milk cartons cut really easily, and tend to stay put some of the time. It's also a fuction of blade sharpness. A historical edge isn't really capable of razor-fine cuts against bottles and whatnot... they're designed to cut people, not bottles.

    I think the stance is a bit high, personally. However, the bottles are certianly cut. I tend to hold Vom Dach a bit higher over the shoulder (crossguard about chin height) and angled back 45 degrees, allowing for a bit more power in the cut. The footwork can get a bit funky when cutting a static target, while trying to remain in the video frame. Stepping a bit further to the side while rotating the hips into the cut will increase the power as well. Then again, it's seen in two dimensions, so it's hard to get an idea of where he's stepping.

    And Cudgel had the guts to post the vids. Major kudos for that. When I get a chance, I'll post some vids of me cutting some stuff. :) Well, there is an old clip of our whole class doing some cutting. I'm the only left-handed guy using a longsword (used two-handed, for clarity to non-WMA types). It's certainly not an indication of my current technique, as I was a rank beginner then. ;) It's here as the Annual Halloween Test Cutting. Enjoy. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  7. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    Ok...
    My stance is the version of von Tag depicted in the von Danzig manual, which is why I am holding my blade so low. These vids were a way for me to see if it were even jsut possible to cut from that low of von Tag with little force. Surprisingly the cuts were the cleanest I think i have ever made. The next time I do cutting I will take pics of the slain bottles.

    The sword I was using is a Cold Steel grossemesser. An ungainly beast of a sword. it is about a pound heavier than i would like it to be @ 4 pounds. It balances about two inches to far. And the edge used to be paper slicing sharp ,but through handleing and useage its been brought down to sharp enough to cut flesh and Im sure if I tried I would slice my skin but its not razor keen. It doesnt need to be.

    The intent behind my strike was to as Stolenbjorg put it in Italien terms, or to put it in to plain english, cut from the roof to a close long point with the intent to thrust from the bind into their throat or head. And I only steped slightly outwards.

    And I am lefty but the way the nagel (ring set off of the cross to protect the lead hand) is set up my messer makes it look goofy to use it left handed. I am going to to have have a custom one made or make my own.

    Ive noticed that bottles always get knocked off the stand, probably do to lack of mass, bouncyness of the material, and the relative dullness of the sword, and posibly a deficency of my technique.

    Hopefully this get the rest of you guys motivated enough to post videos of cutting or sparring.
     
  8. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Very brave of you!
    Hope you don't feel we've been too hard on you :)

    Personally, I'm a crap cutter. The first time I tried; in Dijon, 3 (4?) years ago; I did cut very well, and I've enjoyed some success here in Norway as well, but as the years have passed, I manage to cut poorer and poorer (It doesn't help that I hardly ever test-cut; the last time was 10 months ago, and that was not an impressive sight...)

    In my Re-enactmentgroup; the Free-lances "Frilansene", some members do cutting on pig-thighs for audience from horseback http://www.medeltidsdagarna.se/phpscripts/mg2/Kungahälla 2006 Fredag 0124.JPG + http://www.medeltidsdagarna.se/phpscripts/mg2/Kungahälla 2006 Fredag 0136.JPG (notice how the blow have gone through the thighbone and this was after one blow with a 1h sword from horseback) , and we've allso done arrowshooting on pig-flesh coated with gamberson and/or mail.

    We plan an event just after christmas, perhaps I should try to videotape it and upload it for you, so you can pick my technique apart :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    Cudgel,
    Not to worry bro I don't have a background in this stuff at all so my questions are kind of all over the place at once anyhow. :)

    Interesting stuff. Damn.
    Now I want to cut some stuff up with a big German sword! :D

    What is a good book to start understanding this sort of swordwork?
    I've been on several WMA type site recently but not really sure where to start reading. :confused:

    Here's the two places I've found to be the most interesting:

    These guys seem to have some books worth reading:
    http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=216

    and these guys seem to have some good info as well:
    http://www.thearma.org/
     
  10. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    Stolenbjorn-Ha....Ive gotten a lot worse feedback on these,mostly from ARMA members. And my newly aquired person with more knowledge than I, tells me that people put to omuch emphasis on cutting. I agree, but I think cutting is important. If you cant cut a target the same way you would swing in a fight then somethign is wrong.
    It took no bravery at all on my part. I knew as I was taking them that I am a beginer and my technique will not be perfect, and that people will find faults. Some of them legitimate like my stiffness and others less so, like the "snappyness" of my cuts or the lack of cuttig into a lower guard, which quite a few people have issues with. And I posted them to gain other veiw points.

    Slipthejab-no worries at all. The way a cut is done differs both on your intent and the type fo sword you are using.
    The two books I have, which were recommended to me are Secrets of German Swordsmanship, and Fighting with the German Longsword, both by Christian Tobler. Get them both or at least Fighting, and dont hesitate to get into contact with Christian as his interpetation has changed a few times.If you havent already go check out SFI's HES forum.
    And I would personally steer away from ARMA. Im aquainted with several members and while they are fairly nice people they tend to get a little rabid about things. Like how to actaully strike, and in every test cut vid done by ARMA they are in false times,telegraphing badly, and swinging into realy open guards with sloppy technique. And at least one ARMA member said he doesnt post vids of his cutting because his form sucks when compared to his form in drills and such. Which is interesting.


    EDIT: I am not bashing ARMA I just think some of their ideals are litle questionable.
     
  11. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    Cudgell,

    That took a lot of guts, bro!! I've seen a whole lot more video-bashing than vid-posting on MA forums. Kudos to you!

    I know nothing about WMA, but I think I noticed a difference in technique between your strike with the grossemesser and the way I would wield a katana. With the kat, the power comes almost exclusively from the left hand, while the right provides guidance/aim. You seemed to get a lot higher % of the power in your stroke out of your right hand.

    Did I see this correctly, and is this a difference in technique, East vs. West?
     
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Not that I'm aware of, FWIW. I look at the pommel as the sword's engine... you've got to kick start it to get it moving. ;) For me, the pommel provides the power, and the dominant hand the direction. Even when switching guards, I use the pommel to start the sword's movement because I find that makes the guard transitions much crisper, especially between the left and right ochs guards. But that's just me, and I'm hardly an expert. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  13. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    As you might have noticed, both Cudgel, me and Langschwert plea amateurs, and this is one of the important things to know, when it comes to WMA; 20 years ago nobody did any of this (it was only modern fencing and theatrical sparring), so anybody claiming to "master" wma are either lying, or doing this as a full thime job. I know that some actually do WMA as a full time job (lucky ****'s!) -but even they claim to be on the beginner-stage of understanding the manuals they study. One example; Bob Cherrone, is an american that have had the oppertunety to study the original manuscripts in the museums, and who have been giving lectures on Fiore di Liberi for at least 5 years. He wants to write a perfect "students guide to Fiore", but still haven't published it (as far as I know) -as he changes his oppinion on different aspects of the manual as he improves in his understanding of the manuals.

    So if you're interrested in reading up on this stuff, I ADVISE YOU TO CUT CORERS AND GO DIRECTLY TO THE SOURCES WHICH OF MANY ARE AVAILABLE TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH ON THE NET; I RECCOMEND ARMAS MANUAL-LINKS AS A GOOD STARTING-POINT http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm (and this wasn't shouting, just making the most importaint part of my post standing out) :)

    Wether ARMA is good or bad or wether Toblers first edition book is crap or only partial crap, and wether his second edition is better, is somthing I don't want to venture into. ARMA have the original manuals on their web-sites, so they're worth visition wether you want to join them or not. If you buy an interpretation of a manual, make sure that you remember that it's only an interpretation, not the true gospell of that given manual.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006
  14. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    What you describe, is what I call a draw-cut; which ca be done with a weastern sword (that's the technique I've used the only two times I've managed to cut clean through hard-plastic-bottles.) But this cut have shorter range than the thrust-cut (the edge actually slides forewards, so it could be called a push-cut); -where you basically lands a right fist towards somebody just stuff a sword in the hand and delay a little with the left hand to make the tip drop on target :p You don't ever cut /thrust like that with katana?
     
  15. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Oh, do I ever. ;)

    With regards to the draw/push cut: it's certianly not the only way to deliver a strike. In the German tradition (well, the way I understand it), we distinguish between a cut and slice. A cut (or a "blow" they're called hauen in German) is delivered without the pull/push action. The cut is delivered by the levering action of the sword. Slices are usually done from the bind, when you manage to lay your sword against your opponent, but don't have the time or power to deliver a "blow".

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  16. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    What I refer to as a 'draw cut' is closer to what Langenschwert describes as a 'cut' - the blade is against the adversary (like after a bind), and the sword is pulled back towards the sword wielder.

    Not exactly, no. If I thrust, the force is spread evenly between both hands/arms (in a two-handed thrust) and is straight forward along the length of the sword. If I cut, it is more of a slicing motion, using the pivot in the shoulders and hips to make sure the sword stays in a circular arc. The left hand draws the sword forward (delivering all the power), and the right hand guides the motion to keep the cut straight and the blade alligned with the cut. There is a slight snap at the end, when L and R hands work together in a wringing motion (as if wringing the water out of a wet towel), with a very slight (10 to 15 degrees, maybe?) snap forward in both wrists. In fact, I've had it drilled into my head over and over again to make sure that I do NOT put power into the forward motion of the sword with the right hand, and to avoid at all costs 'pushing' the sword forward with the right.

    I'm not sure I'm describing the difference I saw clearly. If I thought of the swords as levers, the fulcrum of the lever in my stroke with a katana would be at the pommel, or even behind the pommel (away from the sword tip). What I thought I saw in the video clips (not sure), is that the fulcrum in Cudgel's stroke was between his two hands, so that near the end of the stroke, his R hand rotated forward faster than his L (?????? did that make any sense???)
     
  17. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Capt Ann:
    I have great respect for japaneese MA-test-cutting-traditions. Thanks for your info. As for push-cutting; have you been told why it's bad? (I don't know if the push-cut is a viable and authentic medieval technique. It's just an interpretation by us that tries to ressurect the medieval european MA)
     
  18. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I'm not Captain Ann, nor do I play her on TV, and I would like to hear her reasoning, but I think (given my limited experience) that a push-cut is OK for longsword. It's sometimes a by-product of giving someone a shove with the cross of the sword, like shown in the Codex Wallerstein. Here's an example. Whether it's a good idea for a katana I have no idea.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  19. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    Are you kidding??????? That would ruin the 'mystique' :D

    I honestly don't know for sure - I have my own theories.

    I think it might have to do with the mechanics of the cut, and might not apply to Western swordsmanship as much, because of the different blade geometry. A circular cutting motion with a curved blade leaves the blade in contact with the target longer, for a slicing cut. A motion with the sword pivoting on a fulcrum between the two hands would be very effective for a heavy, thick, straight blade, or a blade with a more forward balance point (closer to the tip); this is the motion that happens naturally with a baseball bat swing or an axe stroke.
     
  20. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    OF COURSE :bang: :bang: :bang:
    I've been training theese techniques on thursday, and two days later i manage to say that I don't know of any manuals showing push-cuts :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (I'm glad I just pleed amateur :eek: )

    Capt Ann: your theories seem plausible; I use your arguments on viking-reenactment, where we have no manuals what so ever. Proffesional archaeologists that are completely unskilled in fighting often claim that the vikingswords were used as axes -because they're so top (tip) heavy. I claim that vikingswords (and viking axes) were used to snipe out in push/thrust-cuts using the shield to cover the swordarm-just as shown in the I-33-manuas (7th ward) for the reasons you mention (tip heavy weapons are easier to control and faster to wield when you thrust with them rather than when you swing them like the way the barbarian chief in "Gladiator" swings his greataxe. When they've incapasitated their opponent and he's prone, they can of course chop with the weapons, but not vs. an alive, resisting, armed and aware opponent.

    Returning to the draw-cut for a while; a Sweede (the nationality, not the vegitable ;) ) that trains with us, and who leads our german-longsword-sessions sais that if you hold your hands close together (not having the left hand on the pommel) when you swing the longsword, you automatically get a more draw-cutting-motion on the blade (sircular-like you talk about; Capt Ann), and it's actually true; just try it! It's apparently because the balance is altered when the pommel works as a counterweight, holding the tip in.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2006

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