McDojo vs 5 Star ,, let's get it on!

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tulsa, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I know that these threads can get pretty critical, so I just want to go on-record and say that you don't have to justify anything to me. As long as we are clear about the nature of your school, we can move ahead and talk about the nature of your teaching.

    I'm going to hazard a guess that if you are taking the "personal development approach" that you may want to use the Confucian Model rather than the Academic Model we use here in the West. In this way you could identify a collection of skills that one would need to know, but it would allow for a range of performance within that collection. Within that given level there would be a range of skills from the most fundamental to the highest. The next level may-or may not-- relate to the first level.

    If you use the Academic Approach, it follows that subsequent levels will depend on success at lower levels. This can set the participant up for failure as well as frustration the high up the scale they go.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  2. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    I think this most accurately describes my fundamental approach to teaching MA. The question is now is that quality instruction or am I doing a disservice?
     
  3. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    If you did have some kind of fitness test in place, and assuming that your students are all able-bodied [or whatever the current politically-correct term is], you could have age classes as they do in Orienteering. I can't remember how many there are off-hand, but I believe the main age band for adults is 21 - 35. After that, it goes up in 5-year blocks.
     
  4. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    I've never met you Obe [as far as I know], but would feel 100 per cent positive about being taught by, or sending someone else to be taught by you.
     
  5. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    simple
    offer two discrete syllabi
    one a full-on MA scheme (i.e. Kuk Sool) with ranking /grading etc
    the other a softened down "martial art fitness" equivalent to Boxercise, without ranks. A simple MA themed cardiovascular workout. After all, thats what most of those customers want and need: they want (need) to get fit, and you are their chosen way of doing it. If you want to, you could offer "certs of achievement" when they hit certain targets e.g. 1000 situps or a six minute mile.... Or a cert after six months training,or.... when their blood pressure gets to a normal level, or cholesterol level dips
     
  6. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    AFAIK we haven't met Ollie and while we sometimes disagree on things, one thing we do agree on is that I would also have no problem referring students to you. You have already taught me many lessons, your broad range experiences make you a treasure chest of knowledge...Sincerely.

    Now jokingly...I gotta go wipe the brown stuff off my nose. LOL
     
  7. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    I think .you got.the two most important qualities in any teacher obewan, knowledge and a desire to help your students improve, like pugil I think if I weren't already w an instructor I admire id be happy to train at ur school also
     
  8. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Not in the bit we were in James..or is it John?
     
  9. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    nope, its not
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2011
  10. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    LOL ok JD. If you say so.
     
  11. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    In regard to ongoing educational requirements, as a way of assuaging problems arising from some objections raised by the OP, allow me to make a few observations...

    First, IDK what is taught at the WKSA "instructor's clinic" anymore, but when I was in the Won, they had decided to start splitting this once-per-year event, where lower ranked school owners attended one weekend, and the master ranked school owners attended another. Before splitting this event, one of the biggest problems was consistency with how things were done (meaning BASIC execution of techniques & forms). So a lot of time was spent fixing this so there would be less headaches when facing tournaments and such.

    BION, there were attempts to help the masters learn some better teaching principles, but let's face it, most master-ranked school owners have been at it for long enough not to be in desperate need of such stuff (and it's not like it was *revolutionary* secrets being disseminated anyway), so needles to say, most found these type of presentations boring (preferring instead to be put through the wringer - FWIW most seemed happier when being forced to stay in sub-parallel stances whilst practicing unhakhyeong for over an hour).

    I also noted military analogies posted in this thread, which tried to compare officer leadership courses to the instructor clinics. But accreditation seems to be a big plus in some people's POV, and such courses pale in comparison to the CAPSTONE course which is required of the top brass, and IMO, whether a school owner is master rank or not (this was the ORIGINAL stipulation set by the ROK, except that it deemed 4th dan to be master level - halfway up the original 8 dans that KMA started with), such *extensive* training ought to be required if someone is going to open a school and start teaching MA (or at least TRY to teach). Quality instruction is hit & miss as long as the school owner is more concerned with monetary profits (not saying that you can't have both, as I have known good instructors to be quite successful in the business of running their dojang, thus disproving the myth that the two are mutually exclusive). The problem is that even the best intentioned instructors can get caught up with "how will I pay this month's rent" issues if they don't take the time to build their establishment (and the supporting clientele) in such a way that gives them the freedom from such mundane worries.

    And just like the argument about which is more preferable in an instructor, superior skill OR the ability to pass on knowledge, there's no assurance that someone who's lucky enough to posses BOTH of these qualities will also be blessed with a knack for entrepreneurial insight. The bottom line is that while it would be nice if some MA organization stipulated such high standards for its school owners, trying to form a separate group, where the individuals involved voluntarily strive for such lofty ideals, may be a better way to achieve some sort of status quo WRT higher standards that the general public could come to view as representative of this effort. So, long live KiCKS !
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
  12. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    WKSA's getting better at these events, and all ranks participate on the same date. The presentations are much more informative and the technical instruction is such that one Master is in charge of his/her own section, so the consistency problem is minimized.
     
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Yeah, Obe, I didn't mean that the presentations during the instructor-clinic were plagued with inconsistency, but rather that such problems were glaringly obvious by observing the participants signed up at WKSA tournaments. Since the tournament competitors learn from the instructors, the best way to fix the problem was to *correct* those whose job it is to teach this stuff to others. I never found the clinic info to be "inconsistent" FWIW.

    What I was getting at was that due to the problems encountered at the tournaments, rather than have the clinic focus on how to make an instructor BETTER at the job of teaching, hashing (and rehashing) of basic execution often prevailed. IDK what most people expected from these sessions, but many often viewed it as a means to learn upper-level material. Still others (more recently) thought that HQ should share any insights gained that might help with management issues, as if it was somehow responsible for the success or failure of each school from a business perspective (IMO, this burden should rest on the individual school owner's shoulders, and not on the 'corporate' powers-that-be).


    But thanks for sharing...
     
  14. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    So that means In Hyuk Suh teaches and demonstrates every form and technique at the CEP. That means there arent' any "CEP Instructors" that have each group break off and train each group seperately. And that also means that those Instructors don't have their own flairs like, oh, lets say Master Barry Harmon(whose teacher was Master Oh AND Master In Sun Seo). He would never demonstrate Woon Ohk Hyung completely different from the way Master Sung Jin Suh does it. And that means the same for Master Byung In Lee who also would never do his Woon Ohk Hyung completely different. I'm sorry to say that all three of these amazing masters do their forms very different and with different principles and emphasis on each motion.

    Inconsistency is what makes our art so amazing: that there are 1000 different ways to do the forms and each way is 100% correct. Why? Because each person is different! And the forms have been changed and modified so many times that there are generations of forms now. Just look at how Master Sung Jin use to do his forms when he first came to the US and now how he does them. At first his forms were quick, decisive, and simple. Now they are slow, low, and have different principles. What changed? Well, for one his master in Korea was In Sun Seo. When he moved to the US, it was his father. And now that he's 8th Degree, he himself is modifying the way he does things. There is nothing wrong with that. To argue whether or not there is inconcistency in our art is like arguing if the sky is blue or not. Of course it is. But it can also be light blue, dark blue, and sometimes even purple.

    Eh, maybe this didn't come out right but maybe somebody understood what I'm saying.
     
  15. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    So you could say that whilst the System is the same, the Styles of the individual Masters is different eh! [Ducks behind cover!]
     
  16. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    This is the natural progression of martial art. In the lower degree ranks, one is internalizing the art which is externally the same. In the higher degree ranks, one is externalizing the art which is internally different because of each person's character. In this way, from external to internal and then from internal to external. One must have internalized the art through the external before one can externalize the art from what has been internalized. Thus, Eum within the Yang then Yang within the Eum.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Thanks for the explanation SeongIn. Now I'll just pop off and suck on some eggs! ;)
     
  18. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    This is also the "problem" when a MA org becomes too big. There will be so many masters, of similar standing, all of whom have their own idea idea of how things should be. And they will always be constantly trying to "fix" what the previous master has taught.
    For some this is a positive thing as it brings variety and the challenge of remembering at testing time, which "version" of a form to perform for which master! For others it brings confusion and annoyance.
    Too many cooks maybe?
    But certainly it does show progression. Or at least change. Just look at the old video of Ki Cho Hyung ([ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKDe3KwEzBc"]YouTube - Kuk Sool Won - Gene Gause #33[/ame]) for example. If it were anyone else performing the form this way, today, they maye well have been berated for learning it by video, or trying to remember it from a demo.
    So which is "correct"? And how much change does it take until the form becomes something else and should be named accordingly?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  19. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Then there is this version [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTfp67Btjo"]YouTube - Kuk Sool Won: Ki Cho Hyung[/ame]
    In fact if the two were performed side by side at a tournament today, I believe that in most cases the Blue Belt would probably win!
     
  20. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    I honestly don't know if that is sincerity or sarcasm or what. Guess sucking on eggs is a british thing?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011

Share This Page