Mayweather v Maidana

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by Boardeaux, Apr 29, 2014.

  1. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    After having the chance to watch the fight in its entirety, I felt that Maidana's very aggressive approach was not fun to watch, not graceful, and not to be confused with a strategic plan boldly executed but rather I saw an act – or continuous acts of desperation.

    That was the message so clearly stated from his corner as well: “ Fight dirty...whatever it takes”

    Nah, that's not what I wanted to see.

    Just kept at it. Attempted knees, head-butts, take-downs, dry-humpin Floyd's leg; rinse, repeat. Dirty gobbler wouldn't let up. Maidana kept this 'gameplan' throughout.

    Fortunately, at least a couple of judges were not so gullible and the gobbler ended up with a well-deserved “L”.

    What'd he expect, out there dry-humping Floyd all night like that?

    I think it should have cost Maidana much more than a 1 point deduction.

    I kept hearing one of the announcers going on about how Maidana's “ ...stock rose exponentially...” on account of how he fought. All I could do was shake my head to myself.

    I didn't bother to look at the Fight-metrics...how many landed, the relative percentages of punches landed vs thrown, etc.

    I just kept me eye open and couldn't help but notice that although Maidana threw like a madman, the ones that really counted ( I'll define “counting” as the punches that when they land, the result is a vapour-plume – that is vapourised droplets of sweat, saliva and blood coming off the head and an immediate reaction, either in body language or temporary change of pace of the struck fighter – yeah, not very scientific :D ) came from Floyd, though they were relatively few in number, to be sure.

    I hope Maidana wisely dispenses with the “close your eyes and swing ( and throw MT knees and headbutts and foot-stomping and...)” counsel he was given.

    Maidana is a good boxer and can fight better than this.

    On the other side of it; was Mayweather faced with something he nearly could not handle, at least for a bit?

    You bet.

    He did adjust though, and that takes far more skill and most people watching don't have the understanding to grasp this.
     
  2. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I've been curious if there would be much outcry for a rematch, but with the several sites I read, really there hasn't been one like I expected.
     
  3. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    For all that might be wondering, there is an interview with Roger Mayweather who said Floyd went into the fight with a hand injury, and he would like to see the rematch and claims Floyd would make it much easier. Like I said though, we'll see if there is much interest in the rematch.
     
  4. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I think gobbler spilt all his milk that last one and the bottle is empty. It would be interesting to see how Floyd would go about handling such a wild 'n woolly bout next time out - but I think Maidana would probably opt for a different strategy as well...

    Maybe it would be a reversal of what we saw the other week, then?

    But I'd not be keen to see the last one again, either.
     
  5. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    Like I said, he didn't adjust in the way I would've liked.

    He only adjusted his sense of distance and timing to suit Maidana's awkward style, but it was the wrong decision imo.
     
  6. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    I don't think belltoller is doing justice to Maidana's performance.
    He did many crude and illegal things. That's true. But he fought really well as well. There were rounds ( I can distinctly remember the 5th and the 8th), that he boxed with Mayweather in the middle of the ring and he came on top.

    Later in the fight Mayweather was a lot more impressive than him. You can say that it was due to the adjustments he did and he superior skill, but let's not forget that Maidana was going full throttle from the beginning and he started losing gas around that time.

    And let's not also forget that Mayweather plays a little dirty too.
    Constantly clinging on the opponent when he closes the gap, grapping the opponents hands and putting his forearm and elbow on the other man's face and neck.

    What I took away from this fight was that, finally someone held nothing back against Mayweather and showed us that Mayweather is not the invincible guy he is built up to be.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  7. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Floyd is certainly no angel in the ring by any means, and I don't think anyone here made him out as such, however, he was not tackling (and then hitting while the other guy was down), he wasn't trying to throw knees, blatant cup shots, or some of the other extremely dirty and illegal tactics that Maidana was doing. Fair enough, it's a fight and you do what you can get away with to win. Boxing was once known as "the gentlemen's sport", these days not many guys are a gentlemen about it. I cannot say at anytime at a distance I saw Maidana outboxing Floyd in the least. I saw Maidana get hit with 3-4 punch combos multiple times and I saw him just windmilling punches that compubox counted and I can tell you from watching that in slow motion that most of them didn't land cleanly, or at all.

    In fairness to Maidana, he did much better than most guys would do against Floyd or have done in the past. Illegal is illegal to me though, I won't say what Maidana did was anymore illegal than what Floyd did. All I will say is that he was much more blatant than what Floyd would do. I don't think the ref did a good job at all tbh. I think he allowed to much roughhouse tactics on both sides if you want to argue that both guys should have had points deducted, I won't argue against that, but Maidana should have had at least 2 that I could see. Weeks just let him crowd and wrestle Floyd, hold and hit, etc etc. He should have stopped the fight and told both guys... look, this is boxing, not MMA or a wrestling match. Boxing is about throwing punches. Then again, each ref is different, and there's no use crying over spilled milk. If there is no rematch, at the very least, Maidana will get a few more high profile fights, make himself a good bit of money and hopefully retire a successful and mentally unharmed fighter. I'd personally like to see a khan rematch since amir seemed to think he did so much better against a much more crude Maidana who didn't use any boxing tactics at all at the time they fought. Maidana by KO inside of 8 rds if it happens.
     
  8. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I won't fault Maidana's cardio for certain, nor his will to win (at whatever cost) – and he'd of made a great MMA fighter – that night, at least.

    Rounds 5 and 8 don't stand out in my mind – not that they don't deserve a second look – I'll make a point of keeping my eyes open on those next time I watch it.

    As SIB pointed out in an earlier post, Mayweather did things to attract the attention of the ref, so that the fight could be stopped/reset, as the ref obviously was not paying close attention to gobbler's antics. Floyd had to do this again and again.

    Is that what you mean by saying that “Mayweather plays a little dirty too.” ?

    One of my favourite Maidana moments...Broner!

    (notice the beautiful vapour plume?? :))

    But don't confuse this with the fight with Floyd



    [​IMG]
     
  9. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    No, Floyd really does use his forearm a lot. It was a big subject of debate in his fight with Hatton years ago. The funny part is, if you go back and watch his fight with Ricky, that ref didn't let Ricky in close hardly at all and that was Mr. "fair but firm"... but he sucks too IMO and has now thankfully retired. I'm actually surprised.. usually Weeks is tougher on fighters for that sort of stuff from what I remember.
     
  10. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter


    Madao, how would you have scored it?

    I'm finding the more I watch ( as individual rounds with reverse, slo-mo, etc ) the more I find in favour of Mayweather. The first pass – the fight as a whole, as one would see live – could leave one understanding why a lot of people find it so close, or even tipping the balance in favour of Marcos; simply because Maidana is so bleedin busy and in the seamless live fight, it leaves the impression that Mayweather is being bowled-over en-mass.

    On closer inspection; however, especially if one observes the round individually, in non sequential order, it becomes clear that Maidana is not really landing anything (in many of Maidana's blustery rounds). A good number land on the arms, shoulders, or are blocked outright.

    Watching stand-alone rounds also found Maidana delivering more low-blows than I'd originally noticed. Yes, Floyd's fore-member in gobbler's throat is also there. Though, due to Maidana's strength, it was somewhat ineffectual. Floyd likes to use his forearm as a space-clearing measure preceding a strike. And I did notice Floyd often holding onto Marco's arm when the gobbler had him against the ropes – that often being the trigger for the ref to reset the fight in the middle of the ring.

    Yes, they “both” fought dirty – as they all do to some extent (BeHop makes them both look like rank amateurs in this regard)– but I was shocked at the flagrance and number of disallowed acts via Maidana. Even my 11 year old made comments regarding the ref not doing his job there.

    First 6 rounds 3 of which were definitely Maidana – but Mayweather has always been late to the party, warming up by mid-bout. 4 and 6 were Floyd's as were 7, 9, 10. Originally, I'd thought Maidana had 12 but if one blots out everything and watches with no expectation one way or another... I actually give one of 11, 12 to each if forced.

    Five and Eight, I need fresher eyes than I have now.

    I agree with Zinwor as to the possible reasons for the gap on the score-cards.

    One thing regarding Mayweather in this fight...well both fighters seemed lacking in stagger-punching power...but in fairness to Maidana, one could argue he was “saving himself” as his strategy depended exceedingly upon maximising his petrol use; despite Floyd delivering the vastly overwhelming majority of clean shots...he didn't seem to have a lot of power, especially comin off the ropes, though the at-moment weight advantage for Maidana is unbelievable, as SIB pointed out earlier.

    Counters – the counter-punches that really have been the hallmark of Mayweather separating himself from his opponents in the championship rounds, not there or had little sting as Floyd was tagging gobbler with accurate shots and Maidana looked none for the worse as a consequence.

    Could very well be a consequence of the weight advantage.

    Something about the fight irks me. Missing some definitive Mayweatherisms in this one.

    Everyone ought to be entitled to one off-night every 50 fights or so... ​



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  11. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    As I said, the sting was lacking due to an apparent hand injury that Floyd had. This is according to Roger Mayweather. Floyd will not bring it up because for all of the reasons there are not to like him... being an excuse making IMO is not one of them.

    The end result is this... Floyd won the fight... it doesn't matter if it was by 12 rds or by 1. There may be a rematch, but history has shown us that when a boxer and a brawler fight that in the rematch the boxer typically does much better than the first fight.

    Part of this just shows us why the judges actually need the ability to have instant replay, as well as the ref for that matter.
     
  12. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    @belltoller
    It's been weeks since the match, but I would have scored it pretty much like you did. I think the last round Maidana won in the fight was the 8th and before that he won imo the 5th and maybe 2 or 3 from the first 6 rounds as you suggested.
    That's not too shabby isn't? Against Floyd Mayweather!
    That's why I said that you downplayed a little with your post Maidana's great performance.

    It would be more accurate to say though, that the one who really undermined Maidana's performance was the guy himself, with all the dirty tricks he used.
    It made many fans like you to give more weight on his poor sportsmanship than to his great night.
     
  13. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    But for him to have been truly great that night, if he would have used intelligent pressure and boxing skill instead of the windmill, tackling, hitting behind the head, etc etc he would have gotten a lot more credit for me. He really was just trying to use his weight and wrestle his way to a win. The Cotto fight and Castillo fight are 2 guys to look at who used intelligent pressure. Maidana has greatly improved under Garcia, but he didn't look like a Duran vs. Leonard in there either, so let's not get to ahead of ourselves for the praises.
     
  14. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Has it been weeks? A couple, then. Am I keeping you up? Lol


    Rather this: "That's not too shabby of Mayweather, issit?"

    Considering Mayweather had virtually no control – even after he adjusted after those first 4-6 rounds, Mayweather's control was intermittent, and according to Con-a-Box, (sic) Maidana landed over 200 punches to Mayweather (that gash above FMJ's eye was from a headbutt) and that's not counting the other 600 punches from Maidana that missed! LoL!

    Floyd shoulda lost by distraction alone, with eight hundred of those firecrackers coming at him all night, then turn 'round and there's gobbler humpin his leg again.

    I think Mayweather had a plan and his plan backfired on him. I think Floyd's been reading too many internet boxing forums and letters to Ring Magaizine and was stung by criticism about his 'stick n hit' style, decided to stay in the pocket longer than his experience would have dictated otherwise and consequently rediscovered why he mastered that elusive style to begin with!

    Was Mayweather Sr. calm durin the fight? I didn't hear that part. I'm sure Sr was as dumbfounded as Jr's most ardent fan-base.

    Unfortunately for Floyd, he chose the worst possible fight to experiment on styles with as Maidana and Garcia had chosen that night to deploy their own experiment – the “Blitzkrieg” - in a desperate effort to find a solution to the Mayweather equation. To compound the folly, there was an issue with a possibly sprung hand on Mayweather, according to SIB.

    D'yer notice how often Floyd ended up on the ropes? Since when has Mayweather allowed fighters to bully him all over the ring? Tie his hands behind his back and he should still be able to dance away from a lot of that.

    I really think that somewhere in Mayweather's mind, he was going to emulate Ali's “Rope-a-Dope” (See Ali vs Foreman) trick or some reasonable facsimile thereof, against Marcos. He'd worked it out with people ( not his trainers, though, no way ) and came up with a game plan for this “new way” and because of his natural discipline and years of sticking thick and thin through things, he tried again and again to:

    Stand still and get hit
    Stay in the Pocket for an eternity
    Use the Ropes ( M. Ali style ) to tye up and exhaust Marcos and deliver catapulted rights, lol

    Something went wrong.

    What, we'll probably never know; maybe the ropes were a bit too tight (that happens, as far-fetched as it may seem!) but somehow, by virtue of some weird synchronicity that took place in the ring that evening, Floyd found himself locked into a pattern that he'd set out and it was becoming alarmingly clear that he needed to exit from that merry-go-round tout de suite, lol. You can see it in his face.

    All of this unbeknownst to his trainers, LOL. I'd of loved to've been a fly on the wall of that dressing room after the fight – Mayweather's trainers all gathered around him in a circle, frozen grimaces on their faces. Mayweather Sr.... “jus... jus...what was you thinking...that's all I wanna know, what was you thinking was gonna happen?”

    It might have turned out a brilliant strategy on Mayweather's part, had it occurred on another night, another fight. Maybe we'd all still be talking about it. LOL.

    Purely conjecture, of course. But couldn't you see that happening? Have a bit of fun folks.

    The point being, despite everything that could go wrong with Mayweather...he should have lost and badly.

    “The judges...”

    No, warn't the judges.

    800 punches thrown classified “Ineffectual”. How were the judges to grade that? A very un-together Mayweather out of step with himself, his trainers in the dark and gobbler punching his heart out.

    Reminded me of my 9 year old deciding to work on his combinations on my belly right as I get up from overeating dinner.

    “yeah, go get 'em, tiger”

    It warnt having to decide between two brilliant fighters that night, it was choosing the lesser of two evils.

    Those comments sum it up as well as any.
     
  15. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible, but if I were to get into the ring, I might have some success vs. Floyd if I were allowed to use knees, elbows and leg kicks... let's just throw the rules out altogether! lol
     
  16. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Not a chance.

    I think you underestimate the level that Floyd, or any other professional at that level works at.
     
  17. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Simon... did you really think I was being serious? It was the point of not just bending the rules, but blatantly breaking them.
     
  18. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I'm very certain Simon missed the 'lol' at the end of your post.

    That's why I'm prone to use the little animation gifs after finally realising that irony, satire, hyperbole, hubris, understatement and other assorted literary gobbledygook doesn't translate well in this type of medium.

    Yanks and the sense of irony; two ingredients that should never go into the pot together :jester:
     
  19. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Well, what I meant of course was that even though two fighters may be using illegal tactics, there are the subtle ones that veterans use such as a Hopkins, Toney, Floyd, Marquez, etc... and then the down and out blatant hitting behind the head or attempted kneeing right in front of a ref who does NOTHING about it. I mean you tackle a guy and THEN hit him when he's on the canvas and the ref still doesn't take a point? Maidana took a lot away from his performance with that IMO. The more I watch the fight, the more the margin of victory for me has grown, I now have Floyd ahead by 5rds in that fight.
     
  20. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

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