Masaaki Hatsumi; a fake?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Tenchu_, Jun 23, 2008.

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  1. Tenchu_

    Tenchu_ Valued Member

    I want to know what other people here think of this.

    Let it be known before Ninja nerds flame my ass that I am not necesarily saying I have made up my mind and believe what I am about to say, just that I want to talk about it. K.

    Hatsumis master existed. But there is no proof that Hatsumis masters master ever existed. - The assumption has been made by some that the Ninjutsu he teaches is, for the unarmed combat part, just a combination of other Japanese styles, and not actually a unique style. And that the rest of what he teaches is just made up BS.

    He is said to possess scrolls, he lets people view them, he says they are ancient, but although anyone can view them he refuses to let them be professionally authenticated for their age and origins. That is just plain suss.

    Finally, some people have gone as far as to say Ninja are actually pretty much mythical, and no one ever answered to the title "Ninja". They have a point; there is really no evidence to suggest that the situations referred to as Ninja activities were not just simply guerilla army attacks kept quiet because of the shame it would bring to the lord if he was discovered.

    Ninja appeared in stories a long time ago, but there is no actual record of any lord or daimyo or shogun or ANYONE in rank ever reffering to a Ninja battalion or even squad that they own. No record, it is all just myth and here say.

    With all that said, how can you be sure that Ninjutsu you are learning is actually historically based and has roots? I have seen nothing that suggest you can be sure of that. It is just faith.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Potentially controversial thread here folks so keep it civil. Bans will be handed out for flaming.
     
  3. Tenchu_

    Tenchu_ Valued Member

    Yeah, I am after facts and the truth, but. I dont want to start a "Ninjutsu sux" thread.

    It is just, this man is a self proclaimed Grand Master of an entire style. If he is telling the truth there is nothing wrong with that, but if he is lieing?

    Truth be it, though, I do similar training to Ninjutsu myself, however. But I dont dress in black. I think drab green and camo is more sensible, really... black? stands out like dog balls in the forests if it aint night. I dont call it Ninjutsu either. Just Ansatsuken is a better word for it.

    Hmn, just after facts.
     
  4. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Ansatsuken? OK, now I'm suspicious...

    Don't cause trouble!
     
  5. borg434

    borg434 Valued Member

    Ninja is a person, not a group. I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise.

    It is well known that this art draws form 9 different schools. Again I don’t think anyone has suggested anything else (correct me if I’m wrong) . As far as i am aware these schools are not taught collectively anywhere else?

    Any particular example of something which is taught which you consider to be made up?
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    For what it is worth:

    I am quite sure everyone knows about this citation, so I share it just to bring perspective to the discussion.

    “…..

    Masaaki Hatsumi, the present master of Kukishin Ryu, was born in Chiba Province in 1931, and is a graduate of Meiji University, Tokyo. By profession he is a Chiropractor and physiotherapist, and he has his practice in Noda city. He has wide experience in the modern forms of Budo, holding 4th Dan in Judo which he started at the age of ten, 6th Dan in ****o Ryu Karate and Shihan in Aikijutsu. The turning point in his Budo career came in 1955 when he first met To*****ugu Takamatsu who introduced him to the classic martial arts. Since then he has studied and practiced many of the ancient disciplines, particularly those associated with Ninjutsu, in which field he is the leading authority.

    …….”

    ----------------------------Techinques of Self-Defense: Stick-fighting; Masaaki Hatsumi, Quintin Chambers; Kodansha International 1971; ISBN0-0-87011-158-2

    BTW: I just looked at my post and noted the name of the teacher has been effected. Not sure what that is about but note that the middle letters of his name include an "s", "h", "i" and "t" by coincidence so the system must have picked-up on this.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008
  7. Tenchu_

    Tenchu_ Valued Member

    I dont have any examples. Like I said, I am repeating what I have heard. Yet I can repeat it with confidence it is not random because the people who looked into this actually went to Hatsumi and made an atempt to get him let them verify his scrolls, and to no avail.

    Hatsumi does seem pretty moderate, but the people carrying on his teachings in the states, such as Stephen Hayes and Richard Van Donk ar McDojos.

    It is really hard to find something like this out though. If you want to know the truth you have to sift through dozens of stacks of ancient Japanese texts, all which are written in Japanese.

    Whenever I try to find a source in English they always claim their source was basically "Master Hatsumi says". That does not cut it for me.

    There is not even any evidence that the Ninja villages of Iga and Koga ever actually existed as an actual Ninja clan, yet they are quoted as the roots of Ninjutsu everywhere. Why? Surely there must be a reference other than myth stories and master says. No?
     
  8. Tenchu_

    Tenchu_ Valued Member

    I am not denying martial skill. Infact that is exactly what I am talking about. This shows that Hatsumi is more than capable of designing a style of MMA and calling it Ninjutsu if he wishes.
     
  9. Dimitrios

    Dimitrios New Member

    interesting though , if this BS works for you then its ok. If not , why bother , choose another system of your liking .

    Stephen Turnbull's books can give some answers here , especially when it comes to the known relationship of Tokugawa I. and the "men of Iga"
    The word itself "ninja" is a mistake , but it sounds better (!) ...and thats the main reason why it is used.

    This goes for every martial art , even the so-called "koryu".lets assume that in each generation the "Soke" reveals only 90% of his knowledge to his best student (imagine what the others get..). Now , if the student is a genius he might figure out the next 10% or even more and transmit the knowledge , but what if he misses also another ..10 % .Do the math , and see where it gets you after just 3-4 generations.
    To put things simple, i dont care much about the so called "ninja image" . There are perfectly legit "samurai" Ryu's inside the bujinkan , and a lifetime is not enough to practise them.
     
  10. Tenchu_

    Tenchu_ Valued Member

    LOLz at anyone who calls themself a Samurai in this day. I would like to meet and break them.
     
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    We're ALL fakes. As soon as you realise there is no real authenticity other than your training pracitces and martial efficacy the better. So yes Hatsumi is a fake, just like me who does historical European sword. The debate should be can YOU do what is necessary when the time comes.

    The Bear.
     
  12. Tenchu_

    Tenchu_ Valued Member

    Er, well, that does not make Hatsumi qualified. Being a good shadow boxer does not automatically mean you can hold your own in a fight.

    Hatsumi has never fought, you're sure he could hold his own?
     
  13. Marnet

    Marnet Banned Banned

    4th dan Judo.


    Honestly child, please think before you post.
     
  14. kungfudoctor

    kungfudoctor Free Kung Fu for all

    one word for you... crazy

    and to add that it isnt a flame either
     
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Mmmmm.

    I'm a little concerned with the casual use of "KORYO". I think we need to be careful.
    An art such as, say, DAITO RYU AIKI-JU-JUTSU can certainly relate to an older art in one way or another, and many folks do so relate their practice. However, as in the case I mention, the art now practiced by this name was named by TAKEDA Sokaku in 1917 and structured by his son Tokimune following WW II. Technically this would make the art a "GENDAI" or "modern" tradition. See what I mean?

    Historically, following the Meiji Restoration (1867) the Japanese culture went through a period of reorganization and reconsideration of its martial traditions. Some of these were so dynamic that many traditionalists feared for the survival of their culture and its martial traditions. Organizations such as the BUTOKUKAI sought to safe-guard these traditions. The reason I mention this is because some well-meaning folk hoped to perpetuate, reconstruct, promote or otherwise preserve the culture by revivifying arts that had been lost or severely curtailed by modern changes. I know that in Korea the very same thing happened to many of the Korean traditions as well. I am wondering if this might have been closer to the motive behind the subject under discussion. Might the efforts of Masaaki Hatsumi been more along the lines of a "restoration" rather than a "preservation"? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  16. Canit

    Canit Valued Member

    Interesting questions Bruce.

    In addition to the changes in the Meiji Restoration, there is the aftermath of WW2 and Japan becoming an occupied country. Up to that point programmed social conditioning was happening on a national scale, promoting Ultra-nationalism.

    The martial arts were one of the vehicles used to prepare young men and women to sacrifice themselves to support the goals of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". There is documentation proving different ryuha were intimately involved in the ultra-nationalistic movement and the rise of fascism in Japan.

    I know this is a tangent on your line of thought and should probably be a different thread in the general forum, but figured I would throw it out there.


    Back to your final thought and question, "Might the efforts of Masaaki Hatsumi been more along the lines of a "restoration" rather than a "preservation"?"

    I think this would apply more to Takamatsu-sensei, especially with/for the Kuki family. Hatsumi-sensei has always stated that he is passing on what he learned from Takamatsu-sensei, in the same way he learned it. If we accept this at face value, then he would be preserving what he learned from his teacher in the same way that Soke/Shihan of other ryu are doing. By passing it to the next generation.



    As for the OP, please try a little harder.




     
  17. ShadowHunter

    ShadowHunter Living the Dream

    Firstly, people don't appear to use the search function enough anymore.

    Secondly and lastly I have to agree with Canit here.

    Everything Takamatsu learnt was passed onto Hatsumi and although it could now be reffered to as Hatsumi-Den it is known, or at least stated, that Hatsumi attempts to teach what he learnt by teaching exactly/directly what his Sensei taught him.

    This seems no different from any other martial arts school.
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    ".....Back to your final thought and question, "Might the efforts of Masaaki Hatsumi been more along the lines of a "restoration" rather than a "preservation"?"

    I think this would apply more to Takamatsu-sensei, especially with/for the Kuki family. Hatsumi-sensei has always stated that he is passing on what he learned from Takamatsu-sensei, in the same way he learned it. If we accept this at face value, then he would be preserving what he learned from his teacher in the same way that Soke/Shihan of other ryu are doing. By passing it to the next generation....."

    Thanks, Canit:

    So, within the context of what I wrote, Hatsumi would have been "preserving" the art, and his teacher would have been the one who reconstructed the art, yes? Put another way, Hatsumi would have been an accomplish MA who came across a person who had either inherited or reconstructed an art. Is there documentation to know which the case might be? I remember that there was some exchange elsewhere that Hatsumi has a document to authenticate his practice but would not allow the document itself to be authenticated. Since forging documents is not unknown in the MA community are there alternate ways of corroborating what Hatsumi currently teaches? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  19. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    As a firm believer of the old saying about people in glass houses , could you provide us with a little info about your own training?
    Are you self taught or do you have a teacher , and how long have you been training would be good places to start.
    I'm not looking for a flame war or to belittle your training with these questions but i do feel if you want to cry fake that you should have a verifiable background yourself.
     
  20. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member

    If Soke Hatsumi's instructors instructor did not exist, then why is there a picture of Takamatsu going about doing this? Where did he learn it from?

    [​IMG]

    Seems a bit strange to have a picture of someone that seems not to exist and is attributed to.
     
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