For what I understand, they had many bouts, going onto 3 big matches. The Kyokushin guys won 2-1. But if you read the interview I posted the link to before, you see they trained much harder than almost anyone today. From about.com, about Soeno: "In defeating several comers, Soeno was readying for a fight with the Dark Lord of Muay Thai, a man called Reiba. Unfortunately, just four days before that fight was reportedly set to take place, Reiba was shot and killed by a Thai gangster. Thus, the fight before that one, one against Reiba's brother Daya (a bandit chief), would serve as the signature Karate vs. Muay Thai battle of Soeno's martial arts career. Reports indicate that this fight was on national television, seen by all of Thailand. Daya apparently attacked Soeno before the bell rang, right in the middle of his traditional Wai Kru dance. It was a brutal fight. But in the fourth round, Soeno reportedly ended things by leaping in the air and striking Daya with an elbow to the top of his skull."
Kyokushin has produced many very impressive fighters no doubt. I think those kinds of people would probably be good no matter what they did though. But Mas Oyama himself, well, look at the footage of him doing anything. It's terrible! Mr Suzuki of Wado told a story of how Oyama got slapped about by one of his 1st dans. It is well known that all the stuff with the bulls was fake. They were drugged, and when he "chopped" the horns off them, the horn had already been sawn. If he trained so hard, why was he so fat? Where is the footage of Oyama having a proper fight with anyone? Maybe there is some, but I haven't seen it. I seem to remember reading an article by Steve Morris a few years back regarding Oyama not being what he said he was. I think it was Steve Morris anyway. The videos at the start of this were very impressive by the way.
Yeah I'm still undecided if Kyokushin makes people into tough fighters or that the training and sparring is so rough only the tough fighters are left. Probably a bit of both to be fair.
You're probably thinking of this thing, by Jon Bluming: http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/mixed-martial-arts-mma-bjj-forum/590-jon-bluming-mas-oyama.html
Thanks What is your experience with Kyokushin? There is a definite method which does produce good knockdown fighters, what your saying about good fighters from the system could relate to any system . From what I have seen KK excels at open knockdown over guest styles. Its what we train so we will be good at what we do. You wouldn't climb in a boxing ring without specific training, why knockdown??? Interested to see your sources for the Suzuki Sensei and Steve Morris quotes. Regarding Oyama Senseis weight, it is said that he suffered with Arthritis later in life due to previous training so maybe that was a factor? Lets also mention that he was deemed skilled anough to gain Dan grades from Funakoshi Sensei and Yamaguchi Sensei two pioneers of Karate development. Osu! Dan93
I just saw that you posted some clips with Kyokushin vs Muay Thai forom 1964 and remembered that slipthejab made a thread with this subject exactly a year ago. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107098 Some interesting information there and an extra video.. EDIT: PASmith, the grandmaster of your style, in the photo you posted, is Kenji Kurosaki? If that's the case, then he was the one that lost the fight.
Care to show us a video where you think he is performing something terribly? Not all stories are based on fact, especially in Japanese culture. Oyama openly admitted fighting bulls was a publicity stunt before. There still was a big element of danger - Oyama spent 6 months in the hospital after being gored by one. He still did have to wrestle the bull, which any rodeo fan can tell you - steer wrestling is hard work. Doesn't look too fat here. Or, are you comparing pictures of him from after he became old and developed arthritis in his later years? Yes, even hard training karateka can put on weight from getting old and developing health problems. Where is the fight videos of virtually all of the highly regarded karateka then? Jon Bluming's probably. Like many things you need to take it with a grain of salt. Bluming was a loyal student of Oyama's but had his own issues with him and others, hence why he formed his own organization. Any time someone has a falling out, though they may have respect for the other there is often some animosity in it. I believe most of what Bluming says, but my main instructor also got to train with Sosai Oyama himself and says things contrary to what Bluming says as well.
There will be people who would say stuff about Sensei Mas whether it is positive or negative. Being despite of that, I have my loyalty, inspiration and respect to our grand sensei and founder of the style that he develop and what I and many others here currently learning and training for. And I'm proud to be part of Kyokushin! Osu!
Nope...Yoshiji Soeno of Shidokan. The tiger of Kyokushin. And you don't get that nickname without being a badass.
Here's one nice Korean action film worth checking out! It is about our great Sensei! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhRJSVzhJ6U"]Fighter in the Wind (trailer) - YouTube[/ame]
Oh yes, where he pulls the horn out of his body and chops it, right?And you think Suzuki would lie over something like that? He really needed to lie with his legacy didn't he? Fight video's? What like with Kanazawa, Enodea......... and there are people who have actually sparred their instructors. I've never heard any student say they sparred Oyama. I may be wrong..... I never mentioned Bluming, but a telling article nevertheless. And even some people can suck their bellies in! But yeah, granted, he don't look too bad, but hardly superhuman. To change the subject slightly, why was he pictured with a sword? Did he ever use one? Or was it just because it looked good?
Suck their bellies in? Are you serious? I must be looking at a different picture than you. In the picture I saw, the man looked much better than "don't look too bad" As far as his fighting skill, I have never seen a film or talked to anyone that fought him. However, two out of three students winning a challenge match from Thai boxers, that says something!
I don't think it went down in quite that way. As for his meeting with Suzuki and his first Dan - what year was this? Was it at Suzuki's school or another place? What happened? At one point Oyama was stealing a lot of students from other schools. Could that not have been a factor? And considering Oyama's willingness to train with many other systems, if he was beaten so easily why didn't he seek to learn from Suzuki? I'd be interested as to how a system such as Kyokushin which regularly developed and still develops tough, capable fighters was developed by an instructor who never fought himself. When he first began teaching Oyama was quite rough on his students and there were many injuries until he settled down. There's not much footage of Oyama in general available. I do know my main instructor has said Oyama would often work in with his students to show them what he wanted and even his pulled techniques were frightening. Seriously? You think he's just sucking his stomach in? Considering he has some definition everywhere else and on his stomach itself, I would say that's a very odd assumption. Since when has looks dictated martial ability? For a good look at him in his younger days, YouTube "Oyama cnargentina." He looks in good shape to me. Not sure of his background with one but I do know he was heavily inspired by the philosophy and life of Musashi. Could just be related to that.
It is / was traditional for masters to carry a sword when posing for a painting or picture. It signifies martial spirit. Sumo wrestlers who achieve the rank of yokozuna still do this. The way the sword is carried tells a story too. Sumo wrestlers for example usually carry the sword in their right hand, and with the edge downward instead of upward. These 2 things make it impossible to draw the sword quickly. It is a sign that even though they carry a sword, they see no need to have it ready because they have no reason to fear whoever is in front of them. In an old movie about a Japanese POW camp, the captain of the guards carried his sword with the tsuka (handle) pointing backwards. This was (in his eyes) a severe insult to the prisoners. It signified that if he used the sword, it would be because he decided it was appropriate, and there was nothing that any of the prisoners could do that would give him need to quickly draw the sword. Carrying a sword itself has meanings other than being a skilled swordsman. And the way that a sword is carried or stored has a lot of meaning as well, and can itself be used to e.g. insult or compliment another person.
That was interesting about the sword. When you say about how the sword was carried, was there anything in the way Oyama held it? As for Suzuki, yes, as far as I know it was at his school. And you're right. It does seem odd that Oyama didn't continue to train with such a fantastic martial artist.
Agreed, especially considering he trained with so many other karateka as well as in a variety of disciplines outside of karate (e.g. Judo, Yiquan, and Aikijutsu). Oyama's school was attracting so many students from other schools that there were often tensions between him and other karateka. Despite the fact that he stated he was not trying to steal their students, Oyama still ended up getting many karateka from local schools. According to my head instructor, there was even a time or two when rival schools tried to storm the dojo itself. They actually would drill from time to time of responding to an alarm, grabbing baseball bats, and forming up inside the school to defend it as the threats were so common.
