"Martial arts has changed more in the last 20 years than the 2000 years before it"

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by Christianson, Jun 29, 2014.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Interesting. What do you think traditional martial arts offer that MMA doesn't? Other than weapons training, for arguements sake :)
     
  2. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Uniforms and bright coloured belts :)
     
  3. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    There's been more changes in 30 years than the 2,000 preceding it? Come on. The past two thousand years have included everything from the construction of the Roman Colosseum, to medieval jousting tournaments, to Taekkyon tournaments in Korea, to all the different Koryu styles in Japan, to first-blood dueling in late 19th-century and early 20th-century Europe, to Gichin Funakoshi's invention of karate sanitized for children to practice "character-building." The difference between martial arts in the 1980s and today is very, very narrow in contrast...especially when you consider that boxing, wrestling, and judo have been basically unchanged in the past 30 years, and simply are a bigger piece of the pie (and are now being incorporated into MMA competitions instead of solely having their own competitions).
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    If by 70's craze you mean David Carradine's show and "Enter the Dragon", my personal opinion is that those helped sell more laundry detergent (i.e. commercial time) and movie tickets than martial arts training. Sure they probably increased interest in signing up to classes and so forth but where is the "boom" in tournaments and venues to go along with it? SO no the 70's were more commercial (which makes sense given the generation). For every one person who saw "Enter the Dragon" or "Kung Fu: the show" and saw their calling to learn Shao lin quan fa, there were probably 99 people who did a lot of jumping around with a fierce dragon roar in between mugs of beer and pretzels. It was "showtime". Now many people will argue the same thing about the UFC/MMA era but you know where it differs? The blood on the floor is where it differs.
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You could also argue that MMA wouldn't exist if it weren't for the 1% of people who stuck with MA after seeing Enter The Dragon.

    I get that you're talking about a qualitative difference, but I was thinking more about a quantitative difference.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    And the chance to call yourself a "warrior" without ever having to be in a fight :p
     
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    For argument's sake, I will stick to what I know which is Hung gar and a little bit of Okinawan karate. From Hung gar I learned a lot about Cantonese fighting culture, which quite frankly is more interesting than the last 20 years of UFC in that there is so much historical context there (i.e. lots of threads to follow and learn about), simply training in boxing, kicking, throwing in and of themselves is not as interesting. Physically yes training all those things is intense and enjoyable...for about an hour or two. The rest of the time when you are searching for interesting topics. It's like the difference between training boxing or karate or MMA or anything and working up a sweat maybe improving a skill (the physical), versus expanding your knowledge of the history of boxing, and all the great boxers, the qualities of the great karateka or judoka of Japan, or wu shu artists of China. For me that is where it gets more interesting. Why did they fight, what motivated them, what did THEY think about martial arts?

    Consider China, Thailand, Japan....you can learn the physical arts from those places or learn MMA to get the fighting bits without the rest...then you can learn about the artists themselves which requires moving beyond fighting. Wong Fei Hung, Miyamoto Musashi...are you a Muay Thai guy? Check out Nai Khanomtom, a "patron saint" of Muay Boran if you have the time. MMA's got nothing on Nai Khanomtom my friend :) So to me there is fighting (MMA, etc) and then there is knowledge of fighting. Knowledge of fighting will never make you a good fighter (if reading books about martial arts history made you great at it, I'd be the Grand Poobah), but to the fighter, knowledge is power! Cheesy I know, but true, and I believe it.

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    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I think arguably the greatest change in martial arts in recent memory isn't so much stylistically but in relation to equipment. The fact that you can strap on headgear, gloves, groin guard, shin guards, etc. on a padded mat and do high pressure training with impact yet relative safety, creates the opportunity to explore techniques under pressure without undue damage. Before this you have to essentially do sparring with no headshots, train through kata, grappling only, or take a serious amount of damage in just learning how to apply techniques under pressure.
     
  9. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    To Chadderz' point prior, Hung gar has a history of injury during training so much so that the Wong Fei Hung system includes emergency first aid. Now by no means am I saying these should replace 911/EMS but they definitely show a big difference in the training methodologies between modern and traditional. Modern training places I think take these kinds of things for granted...if someone does MMA and they go over basic first aid, wound cleansing/prep/bandage please speak out! My guess is the people who only appreciate MMA don't learn nearly enough first aid to go along with their practice, so when they or worse the partner is injured and there's no one to help...l.

    To those of you who only do MMA: how well familiar are you with the first aid kit in your training locale. Do you even have one? If you break your training partners bones, are you prepared to assist? By the first year in Hung gar we had basic splinting/liniment instruction. I know maybe 5 decent, cheap Chinese herbs that I can buy from a local grocer and use as emergency medicine. On top of that I learned a couple plants I can find in the forest that will stave off infection etc. Again in no way should these replace modern medical care where available, but they're useful nonetheless.
     
  10. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    "Real MMA" doesn't need first aid-they take it or bleed all over the matt/ring :eek:

    Forest? Run Forest-Run?
     
  11. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    lol yep you got it. But in all seriousness remember the recent toe explosions and shattered shins in UFC fights? It kind of struck me while watching and reading the reports about how spectacular these injuries were supposed to be...as if people forgot they were watching one on one martial arts duels. Sorry folks blood, cauliflower ear, welts...these are just the beginning in some of these arts. I consider arts like Boxing, Hung gar, Muay Thai, Kyokushin Karate to be arts that know a lot about pain and damage. Wow think about that boxing includes a whole team of people to deal with injuries to a fighter. They know what the heck they are doing. Contrast that with a strip mall karate sensei who claims to be a total killer, or that MMA guy who has never really fought and only trained at some gym. I think you can tell much about a martial art by its injury-management systems. You know what's hilarious a lot of talk about "street" fighting however no talk about how to crawl away from one. Some people have the right idea like Wong Fei Hung and Jigoro Kano, these guys knew that fighting should be balanced with healing and harmony. At least that's how I see it, anyway.
     
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well I'm not really an "MMA guy", by your standards :p but I have a good working knowledge of first aid, although it's mostly for situations in which someone is unconscious, rather than broken bones.

    You also have to take into account most MMA guys are brilliant at recovery and their knowledge there is often good.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    That's what ambulances are for :D
     
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Also, the amount of self reflection I do is crazy. I'm always philosophising in my head about fighting and me as a person. I don't know if you'd call it spirituality or whatever, but it's not like when I finish the class all of a sudden it's out of my head. If anything it's more for me to think about! :)
     
  15. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Do you guys think a lot of the people who get into "sports" or "modern" (hate these terms) martial arts, and develop good skills in the UFC/MMA arena, will later on "re-discover" the values of traditional arts? I Think this is a big possibility...I see a future where many MMA guys will take up Tai Chi to help with their injuries/inflammation in later years, or take up Hung gar because they want to focus their fighting spirit into a different format than just competition, etc. I have met people who love MMA who hate Chinese arts, and those who love MMA and love Chinese arts. What I always find interesting is that of those two groups, the haters of Chinese arts have almost never taken any classes or instruction, or if they did, they just had a terrible experience. To me that would be like eating at that one horrible Chinese restaurant, and using that experience to swear off Chinese food in general (what a loss!!!!). I think as I've watched UFC over the decades I've definitely seen artists show more and more respect to the "traditional" arts. You now today have MMA fighters with roots in all sorts of older systems. There are even at least a few "Shaolin" guys in UFC history. Whether they actually fight "that way" is kind of beside the point (they fight the way they fight the way they fight, and I think sticking to one specific style in UFC is hopeless). But with solid competitors respecting these traditional arts, why would anybody outside competition decide differently? I mean anybody can train what they want. But browbeating ancient styles, I think that time has come and gone and those who do it are the true relics.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I know a lot of older guys who definitely take care of their body more now that they're older. Regular massages, good recovery, yoga and training lighter.

    As for the rest of your statement (?) I'm not sure. TCC maybe, but I can't imagine myself studying Kung fu, other than the weapons perhaps, which is not what you meant I think.

    At the end of the day, you study a martial art because you like it. If some old MMA guy likes it/interested in it, go ahead. There are always things to add to your game. Some parts of my fighting style come straight from Kali. Martial arts is about fighting, anything else is just baggage. Good or bad baggage is for the individual to decide.
     
  17. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I first got into taiji as part of my physical therapy after my knee bent the wrong way in a karate class, and found out I liked it. It also helped my knee a lot, but that's not the only reason I do taiji nowadays. So, yeah, that's a possibility.
     
  18. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    If you like Yoga you might like Chi Kung (chi gung, qi gong, etc.), which is like Yoga but can be more relevant to martial arts and body building than Yoga, especially the types of chi kung associated with "martial" practices. Not all of it is...there is chi kung for non-martial purposes as well, like stress relief and meditation. Some of the martial chi kung I learned in Hung gar was extremely physical stuff almost like contortion....at first it was TERRIBLE but later on, it was not only relaxing but invigorating. Nowadays I do the same chi kung before I jog, or jump rope or do anything that requires motivation.

    It's very interesting you say that about weapons....did you know that ancient Chinese generals agreed with you, and wrote in their military treatises that they generally found empty-handed training to be no so useful for hand to hand combat as they were good for establishing basic strength and gracefulness required to handle heavy weapons? Now I have not practiced much with Chinese weapons but I do know the treatises and catalogs and where the ancient war masters were concerned, training empty-handed kung fu styles was an excellent format for becoming skilled with things like the blades, spears, polearms, and even archery on horseback. Horse stance may not seem so useful for boxing, but imagine how useful it is for embracing your steed while you steady an arrow!. And yes most certainly, the value of empty hand martial arts is sometimes not just in the basics of boxing and kicking, but in the reflective periods. You can reflect on your recent combat while sitting...or while stretching your sore, tired bones using the guided stretching, breathing practices, and movements of ancient warriors. I like watching two gladiators box, but I think that's pretty neat stuff too :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  19. Heraclius

    Heraclius BASILEVS Supporter

    Although nowadays the dynamic is reversed. The school I used to train with introduces weapons in order to improve students' hand-to-hand skills. I haven't really seen or heard tell of a modern kung fu school which focuses on weapons training, unfortunately.
     
  20. Indie12

    Indie12 Valued Member

    Re-Read my statement, I said Mixed Martial Arts!! Has changed the industry more so in the last 30 years then in the past 2,000 years!!
     

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