Even more impressive: Got his Black Belt in Brazilian Ju Jitsu when he was over 60 and was doing rounds with the 20 year olds at Ajarn Chai's Thai Boxing Camp a few weeks ago. For someone who's pushing 70 he's in darned good shape for a 30 year old
Selamat, Serakmurid, Dengan hormat, Thank you for the explanation, aslo to monyetnakal, thank you for sharing what you have heard. I asked because I have never heard the word ustad used without an Islam conotation until I saw it used as one of Mr. Inosanto's titles. I have also googled the ustadz+silat and all the mentions of ustad I find are in a Muslim context. Please be kind enough to pass this information on to Pak Vic and Mr Inosanto if you meet them. Thank you in advance. Hormat saya, Kiai Carita.
Serakmurid, I really don't want to refight the Great Serak Family Feud here. What say we agree that your comment about "certain individuals' flagrant misuse" might be subject vo misinderpreta$ion and cause bñd feeliìgs?
Selamat Tellner, I too do not wish refight the Great Family Feud, either. So I can agree with you, sir. However I am told the reasons for the registeration of the name "serak" by Pak Vic himself, in a private conversation. I am also told this by Mas Gibert Scholtz, the designated records keeper/scribe of our aliran. Also if you understand Hormat, you know I am bound by it as one of Pak Vic's students. Hormat is written very clearly for us by Mas Scholtz. I was not there for any of the problems that plague the highly esteemed de Thouars family. I have only met one de Thouars brother, who has my utmost respect. I cannot comment from my own participation in the disagreements that took place, I was not there. But I am directed if people ask me as to the reason why Pak Vic did what he did, to give this answer. This is also done to counter others not of the de Thouars family. So yes let us meet as men, then, in peace. Kiai, I am also told to refer Ustad Guru Dan Inosanto in this manner and I am bound by Hormat to do so. You seem to be an extremely learned person and I respect that. But I must refer to Dan Inosanto by that title, I believe it is to insure that others in our aliran understand how highly Pak Vic esteems mr. Inosanto. Hormat, Serakmurid
elephant fights elephant... Dengan hormat, Thank you for the explanation once more, Serakmurid. I believe you are doing the right thing with the right hormat and adab and you are proving that you have good silat traiining. I just have this nagging worry that Pak Vic made a mistake. He is half Indonesian, right? Ustad and Guru I believe mean more or less the same thing but Ustad has an Islamic connotation in Indonesia. Research a little the situation in Islam in general and Indonesia in particular and you might sense and understand the urgency of my concern. I would hate for rightwing publications in Indonesia and the rest of Islamdom to use this fact to illustrate how the USA / Inosanto has no regard for our culture except when it wants to steal it and uses our dear Islamic titles for show. Can someone or anyone come with proof (not that I heard) that apart from in the Serak registered trademark school, the title Ustad is given in non Islamic situations? Thank you as well for giving me a glimpse of the politics of silat in the USA. In have found court documents and news of patricide in the USA silat world and should have imagined that things were not all well and dandy there. Gajah berkelahi dengan gajah Pelanduk mati di tengah-tengah Elephant battle an elephant Mouse-dear die in the middle. Problems with big-shots politics in the particular case of Serak is that the solving of the problem registers part of Indonesia'a intangible cultural heritage as an American trade-mark. Should I laugh or should I weep? I just want to understand. Warm salaams and hormat to all, Kiai Carita.
Kiai, i think you may be googleing in the wrong places, try dhrupad and ustad together for instance. You will see dhrupad is possibly the oldest indian music form still in popularity and their most esteemed practitioners are I believe referred to as ustad, which means master. I use this example because it is a hindu art form. I dont know too much about it, so apologise to anyone if i have that wrong, but i should think it is a sanskrit word although that is speculation on my part, similar to guru (an abreviation of gurukal). I should think to a scholar the original meaning of both words will be quite different in flavour.. Kiai, you should check dhrupad out because i believe its quite a poetical devotional music form and you might find it of interest. best wishes :Angel:
Hi Britsilat, thankyou for the advice. All the names that came out with the google of ustad and dhrupad were names that ended with -udin, which is an Islamic name. The Dhrupad as an art form is interesting. I haven't checked it out but seems that it might have undergone Islamization like silat, the keris and so on, by local saints like Walisongo in the Archipelago. But there the title Ustad is still in an Islamic context (being the name) though sureallistically in connection to a Hindu art form? I will check Dhrupad out. Thank you again. Kiai Carita
There should be some sort of gathering of the Serak players from the different branches to share and to also expand on the art. From what I have seen there is a lot of different understandings of the art from both camps (PDT & Pak Vic)Some do jurus one way some do things differently. Why? Who knows but what is certain is that Serak is a great art and its worth investigating and researching. It would be interesting to see if we could all be mature about sharing each others interpretations of the art and try to improve on it. I am sure there are gaps that could easily be filled if only people would be open about it. peace Silat yogi
Silatyogi It makes me glad to see that students of the other Serak tjabangs are open to such a sharing of ideas, as well as a little surprised. A couple of the comments you had posted on this forum had led me to believe that you felt otherwise. It gives me some hope that in the future the rifts of the past can be at least bridged if not mended. I know that some of our murids are curious about "how the other guys get things done" as well and I would hope that any such events in the future are not done in the spirit of competition but in the spirit of honest sharing of knowledge. Sadly I have to agree with Tellner that such an occassion is unlikely to happen any time in the near future. As SerakMurid stated in another post, hormat dictates that even if we don't agree or even know enough about it to understand the rifts, they are there and we need to honor our teacher's wishes until such time as he sees things differently. I'm sure there are similiar loyalties in the other camps. I personally do my best to attempt to avoid the politics involved, so I don't even know the particulars of the reasons behind the rifts, I just know that they are there. From what I gather, at least between the brothers, the majority of the reasons have very little to do with martial arts and since their family and personal business is none of mine I prefer to not even speculate beyond what I have been told. As such I have nothing personal against the murids of any of the other camps. The students from the other branches that I have had contact with, through internet forums or articles I've read, have seemed to me to be intelligent folks and good fighters and I wish all of you cats nothing but the best. For the most part you all have my respect. Hopefully we will see a day where we don't have to watch each other through "windows" and I think positive discourses through venues such as this forum are terrific steps in that direction. However they can also cause steps backwards and I think we should be cognizant of that as well. Not only can they be a potent medium to spit intentional venom, statements with no malice whatsoever, whose only intent is to share knowledge as the individual sees it, have the potential to be misinterpreted (as we have seen in this very thread) so I would like to come out and say that I hope, at least in this venue, we can all meet as individuals sharing our knowledge and supporting our great art and try to leave as much of the politics outside. I, for one, am very sensitive to the bad reputation we have regarding this subject and cringe whenever I see something printed that supports it. Terima kasih for your indulgence. Salam hormat
Monyet Nakal, Your post is a model of tact and diplomacy, something that we can use more of. I sincerely hope that whatever issues the members of the family have that it not sour personal relations between their students. We're in Oregon and not hard to find. If you're ever up this way please do come by to train, talk story, eat barbecue or whatever suits you. Todd
You are all also invited downsouth Miami Florida if anyone wishes to come train, share, eat, have a drink and talk Silat.
Kia, I'm not sure why Pak Vic puts Ustadz before Dan Inosanto but to my limited knowledge Dan is the only one he does that for. Now it is also my understanding that Pak Vic is Christian but maybe Dan is Muslim and it's out of respect for Dan's beliefs. Now onto Pak Vic & Serak: Pak Vic has registered the name hence the (R) in a circle. What that means is that no one in the U.S. can legally use that name without his permission. Pak Vic is under the mistaken impression that his family holds the lineage rights to Serak and no one else can claim direct inheritor ship. I personally don't agree with it and it will never hold up in court because it can be proven that he did not invent Serak and that the name Serak has been in the public view for many years before he registered it! But no one has contested it yet and he has not tried to sue anyone for using the name yet and so the average Joe American thinks he owns Serak. Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Guro Inosanto was a Christian the last I heard. I haven't known Guru Victor to be particularly sensitive to the feelings of Muslims. Quite the contrary if his own words and the reports of former students are any indication. We still use the word Serak. If he tries to defend the trademark he will find it impossible as it has been in use both in Indonesia and the US by other people long before he was teaching the system. It gets better. Lately Guru Victor has been saying that he's the only one in the family who does Serak - that his brother Paul never really learned it and his brother Willem only started martial arts in the 1980s. Both are, of course, false. This weekend I saw old home movies from the 60s and 70s of Sifu Willem doing Kun Tao in his backyard, outside the mill he used to work in, and at martial arts demos. Now he's claiming (cf. the April issue Inside Kung Fu) that a couple of really succinct and useful ways of explaining techniques (such as the infamous "Base, Angle, Leverage") that my teacher came up with in the mid 90s were invented by him. Or by Bapak Serak; the story has changed a couple times. My wife and I have had a running joke since about the week after we got involved with the art that "Silat Brain Rot strikes four out of five. Please give generously." The joke has become progressively less funny :bang:
Really, Mr. Tellner? Hmm, I don't remember Pak Vic ever saying Paul never really learned Serak or that Willem started learning in the 80's. Where did you get this info from? You also forgot to mention Maurice, who Pak Vic has acknowledged has the whole system. I think it would be more accurate for you to say Paul never taught the whole system to anyone. Even Stevan Plinck ( who I have heard Pak Vic praise for his execution of Jurusan Sepak) admits this. As for Willem there is a WAV file of him admitting he doesn't know Serak, just ask Steve Gartin. Pak Vic registered the name Serak to stop the unscrupulous use of the name. This, as you, know has already happened, by an ex-student of his and Bob Vannatta, who claims to have learned Serak, yet really learned only Tongkat. Pak Vic doesn't really go around continually bashing his family, just this evening I watched his web cam class and there was never any bashing of brothers. Alot of the friction between the 3 of them is personal as Pak Vic has shared with me privately. Pak Vic has NEVER said that his family holds the lineage rights to the art exclusively, please share your source, ICT.
I was never much of a diplomat. Never really had the knack. But I am fair to middling at honesty. The following is the truth as best as I can divine it and comes from the heart: Serakmurid, with respect I'll have to say that the story has changed radically over the years. Several times. Often in ways that have contradicted what he said earlier. Everyone who has a falling out with the de Thouars family is suddenly a non-person who never learned anything. A good friend of mine who is too much of a gentleman to say so in public was (crudely) airbrushed out of photos to deny he had ever been where he was or given rank and status that he can document. My first Silat teacher was cast into outer darkness when it became expedient in spite of his willingness to go well beyond the requirements of hormat for his teachers. In the case of Bob Vannatta it's particularly egregious. He spent twenty years with Guru Victor, worked tirelessly for him and was rewarded shabbily for his loyalty when the wind changed. It's not just Pak Victor. Other members of the family have done the same sort of thing. It's a source of continuous chagrin to those of us who have been watching the whole thing over the years. So when it comes to trademarking Serak and claiming to be the only qualified teacher I'll have to say that it seems to be more about control than quality control.
