I'm sure this video will be like adding fuel to the fire here, but keep in mind Ma was a very notable and high level master in the Wu Style. His skillz were felt by many people, student and non-students..... Enjoy http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8784247348094164056&q=taichi
I would like to feel what that guy was doing - to see if he was doing something more than just leading their minds. J
Personally, I find it fascinating. Here we have a well known master who use to push with anyone who stood up to him in public ,even into his nineties. He had real skill, which was very well known and tested. I would say this is what the classics say Yi leads the Chi. In other words, very high level from what I can tell, but I'm sure there are many here who won't agree.
My last post probably gave the wrong idea. I don't doubt this man had substance, I would just like to have felt the nature of that substance, so as to understand better what is happening in that clip.
I suggest that back in his day, if he was tested, it did not look anything like that. Just because someone once did something of merit, does not mean that everything after is valid.
Maybe so Lio, but fighting and push hands are two different things as far as training goes. Ma has been quoted as to saying he's had hundreds of fights when he was younger.
That was not pushing hands. I have been quoted as saying that you are a martial arts genius.....but that does not make it true.
I'd like to cross-post a few comments made about this clip by Mo_Ling on EmptyFlower: Ma was really good, but people in this clip are still hopping around purposely, giving stiff arms for Ma to work with purposely and running/walking backwards purposely. I have also felt people of this skill level and method of tuishou. The effect on the opponent will be: fall down, forced to step back, stumble away, unless they intend to create some drama, no one ever hops around unless their joint is locked, which for the most part is not meing shown here. When they stuble away as Ma could easily have created without the drama, they stuble in a way that looks dangerous, like they really cannot control it, not like this one. There is a lot of ******** performace and face giving in Taijiquan, just as there is self validation of cherished mythology. This participant/opponent is creating a lot of drama and giving simple stiff arm to Ma when it makes for a good show.. -------------------- However, the point here is that MA could do what he does, and I could also allow him to do what he does without adding all the drama. I have seen other videos of MA playing with his son and others and the drama was NOT there, no hopping back 15 feet, no stiff arm etc. MA could deal with many people, he did not need no stiff arm super DUMB-JIN approach to make him look good. If you (anyone) choose to believe that everything that happened here was a result of MA using their intent, thats fine, you have your vision. I have mine, and I see a lot of superfluous crap that someone of MA's level did not need. He would toss your *** anyway.
Hi All, I hesitate to call it fake - as fake to me implies that both parties were trying to deceive a third party... It was definitely someone showing a LOT of respect to the master. Personally I've trained with a few elderly masters who if you paid them that type of respect would either burst out laughing if they liked you or slap you upside the head if they didn't. All the best. Robert.
just seems a shame that they are hopping around for him, I know the previous post talked of a lot of face being given in taiji, but i would hope that the old man would just say, stop being so bloody silly with all the dramatic nonsense. does anyone know of any links to clips of taiji applications or pushing hands where there in no such drama? I would love to see that. In some ways I feel cheated by these types of clips because of the way those being pushed are behaving. I have a tape of Erle's and on that there is lots of similar footage of people in china doing the hoppping thingy for some old masters is this just a chinese reaction to being pushed or does this occur in the west? BB
Bah, If a "Master" wants you to make a fool of yourself for the benefit of his ego, he is not a man worth following. So they are either fakes or fools.
and i am sure they have to pay handsome amounts of money to become disciples of such esteemed men... BB
Yes, but Mo Ling is a Chen guy (who thinks he knows everything) and if you read the rest of the thread on emptyflower someone who knows MA personally said that his skillz are real. I guess I'm the new Richard Dunn here, because I see the energy at work here and I think it's very cool. Oh well.
I think all these kind of clips are a total waste of time tbh - if you can't apply it without co-operation from the partner then it's more or less useless imo... Energy phenomena is one thing - I work with that all the time, but usually you can't see that happening at all. That's why it's termed energy - not physical... lol Training is another thing, and I feel this stuff (if there's any value in it at all, which I really doubt...) should be kept indoors and not shown to the public. In the case of these types of 'demonstrations' I feel they take more away from Taiji's reputation as a martial art than they give to it... ...anyonbe who's genuinely impressed by it probably thinks Paul Daniels is a genuine sorceror and that the moon is made of green cheese lol These demo's just big up the Taiji practitioner's ego imo :Angel:
I respect your opinion, but I'm sure you realize that there are some benefits to this type of training like sensitivity and reading your opponents intent before he reads yours. If these two things can be applied in a "real" situtation then I would say there is some merit to energy work and development. I believe different people can develop different "sensitivities" if they train for it. How one could or would use it is another matter all together. Ok, I've said my peace.
