Lunge Punch or Straight Punch

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Obitim, May 22, 2013.

  1. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    Evening all,

    I'm a complete noob in the forum but have a question regarding throwing a punch in Jujitsu.

    In my first club, when performing a hip throw, a punch would be thrown by the uke from a boxing stance with a right cross. You would then block, grab the arm and pull the uke off balance and then go for the throw.

    In 2 of the new clubs I've trained at, the punch was instead thrown as a lunge (well, not precisely lunge, but also not a haymaker, the uke steps forward as the punch).

    I was curious which was correct? The reason I ask is that for a lunge punch at my original training club we would use a throw called a drawing ankle throw instead as the uke was coming towards you and therefore already off balance.

    Cheers!
     
  2. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Correct for what?

    I'm not being funny there but you have three different clubs there and probably three different styles.

    There are many different styles of jujutsu and the attacks used and trained against will vary depending on the style.

    In a modern western system you may well see lots of "Boxing" style strikes but in older Japanese systems you'll find more hammer hand, overhead fists, open hand strikes, dagger usage and sleve grabs.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  3. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    Good point Dean, I guess what I'm gettign at is which would be more useful?

    Personally I preferred the 'boxing' stance style as a lot of people do MMA and other fighting styles.

    I should have mentioned the other 2 clubs that demonstrated the 'traditional' punch are 2 separate schools but did have a lot of crossover in terms of instructors
     
  4. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Again more useful for what?

    You should aim to be able to do the technique from both a stepping and non-stepping punch (or whatever you want to call them).

    Realistically if someone is already throwing a punch at you, you are not going to have time to notice where their entire body is doing and say "Oh, he's stepping forward with that punch, time for that drawing ankle throw". No, you just act instinctively. So the drawing ankle throw is not THE correct technique for this scenario, but it may be used.

    Techniques are taught this way at a lot of clubs. It's a way to get you to learn both how to negotiate an attack (see the punch and block it or whatever) and also learn an addition technique which you respond with. Just because you may be initially be taught X defense to Y attack does not mean it's the only defense to that attack and vice versa.

    My advice would just be to follow the instructions of your current club. You may find you'll end up at the same destination whatever school you stick with.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  5. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    Useful in an actual fight, as opposed to useful in the dojo I suppose
     
  6. righty

    righty Valued Member

    You are not guaranteed to be attacked in any particular way. So in terms of that they are both useful (provided they are done well).
     
  7. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    I was thinking on the street...they may not be done well!

    So righty, what you;re saying is that you use the techniques like a toolbox? the right tool for the job in hand?
     
  8. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Yes, always use the right tool for the job. And for different people, different tools may be better for them - but this is something you can learn only from experience.

    As you learn more you should aim to be able to do a hip throw (or whatever technique) from a variety of attacks.

    So whether you are training now with your attacker stepping or not makes little difference in my opinion.

    What I would think it more important is to make sure to learn how to negotiate the initial attack properly. It doesn't matter how awesome your hip throw (or whatever) is if you can't prevent that first punch connecting with your face.
     
  9. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You should be able to do it from all types of strikes, there is no right or wrong, there is only a wrong way to deal with it (IE demanding that the response must be for a certain technique and not allowing the idea of a different type of attack to be explored) but at the same time, if you want to talk 'street' I wouldn't recommend that technique at all.

    I look at a hip throw as opting to give your back to your opponent, it's not clever. All the theory in the class about being able to easily take balance and execute the throw go out the window in a real life situation.

    For me, hip throws are restricted to situations where you mess up and find yourself in a place where you can execute, in a similar manner to a suicide throw.
     
  10. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    It's ok, I use my face for the blocking!

    I've got about 10+ years experience in JJ, just that point was irking me, if there's a correct way to throw a punch in a dojo or not!

    But as you say, it depends on the class and the instructor and just do what the rest of the class does!
     
  11. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    Hi Matt!

    I'm the same, I've found a number of techniques that seem useless in isolation but, as you say, can be useful if you find yourself in that position!

    I agree, in 'street' a hip throw is not a great idea and there are many other options which you should use!
     
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    correct in the dojo will depend on the dojo - our orgs standard punch is lunging, but when in training groups we often like to try different styles such as twisting/boxing style straights and hooks. There is no point learning to only deal with people who work in your dojo, with those rules, since the chances of being attacked by them (other than at the christmas do) are slim.

    Sounds a bit like you have a chip on your shoulder from your experience in the past and how you think it should be done 'right' just remember there is no right.. if you can learn from this group do, if not then move on.
     
  13. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    Nah, no chip, just curiosity, irk was the wrong word I think!

    I've moved to a new area and haven't found a club yet with the same vibe as my old club, so a touch of frustration I think!
     
  14. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    That's natural. Even if you find the perfect club it won't work for you until you also feel that you reclaim your position in the pack. But in a club that is too misaligned you won't even get to that stage.

    The best thing, and of course, the most difficult thing, is to drop your attachment to your old skills and use this new start as an opportunity to start over and refine. It is something of an holistic Shu Ha Ri concept, leaving behind the old you and learning the new you, but not forgetting where you came from.

    I had to go to a lot of different dojo after leaving Japan to find a place I could fit in, the one I ended up at was totally against what I am good at, which is a great learning experience, with me struggling with many things, intertwined with a few moments of the old me.

    On the way, I remember a couple of places where they had a number of guys at the 3-4 year mark (some silly colored belt) who wouldn't comply with technique and tried to make me do things their way, because I was the new guy- however I had more experience than their teacher - that's a pack thing. Those are the times when you have to move on, since in the long run the learning curve is capped (though in that case capped by the teacher, as those guys would have worked out the order of things with time).

    With 10 years in you should know if the guy in charge can move or not, regardless of the nuances of the punching - if he seems legit then it could be a good place to stick around.

    Keep feeling things out, see if you have found a place with a long term potential to learn, or a place where they are muppets and you need to move on.
     
  15. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    Cheers man!

    I think you;re right, I'll try a couple out and get a feel for them!
     
  16. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    When I used to do Ju Jitsu I used to ask my partner did they want a 'martial artsy punch?' or a 'real punch?'.

    This sounds flippant. Though I feel it shows a good point. Why? Because the martial artsy punch was a step in and punch. Granting my partner time to block, parry, counterstrike etc, grab and go for the throw, lock etc.

    They couldn't do this against 'real punch'. Because it's too fast (most people's 'real punches' are too fast to be able to be countered in this way).

    And so - I'm sure you've sussed this out yourself - whether it's 'effective' or not is more of a question of saying 'effective against what and how?'.

    Against fast pressured punches etc you start to realise that the training sequences you're using need to mutate to become 'effective'. And that what looks great in a controlled environment...You get the rest...

    The lunge style of punching - from up close - is a better tactic. At least it forces you to really concentrate upon not getting your clock cleaned by being effective with your first parry. And paying attention to the followups etc.

    How much 'resistance' do you guys use in your Ju Jitsu practice?
     
  17. Obitim

    Obitim New Member

    Resistance

    Hi there!

    By resistance do you mean to the throw?

    We don't jump for the other person but we also don't drop our weight to make it impossible to be thrown...
     
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Any time uke steps in, whether it is a step, lunge, or other forward movement, in order for them to get in range to hit you in training... that is to help you develop the timing to align your body and hit (atemi) them before you throw them.

    Get off the line of attack, align the body... Atemi through a kuzushi, then throw. If you are skipping the atemi and going right for the throw, there is something either watered down or missing.

    On the other hand, if you are going off first contact (such as going off a block) and then throwing... you may be able to use first contact to unbalance and go right for the throw without a visible atemi. I say visible atemi because the use of atemi is still there using the whole body rather than just your hands. If going off first contact, there is no need to require uke to step... this can be done from where you can clinch... making blocking hard to do, so your blocks become either shields or strikes or both.

    Anyway, I'm probably not very clear... just be aware that there should be some use of atemi to set up your throws, particularly when uke steps forward to attack.
     
  19. Brixtonbodunwel

    Brixtonbodunwel Valued Member

    Although I acept not strickly part of this thread in that it is about types of punches used in different Ju Jitsu clubs I agree with Sokklab that real punches are really fast and dealing with them is quiet difficult.

    This is quiet a good clip to illistrate my point; the guy uses the classic combination of Distraction to gauge the distance, then throws the punch fast and straight.

    http://youtu.be/ehZ7fYDVtiY
     

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