So starting a thread related to Lu (Luo) here is a classic song of it: "Let your opponent come in, The rotate with his force. Do not resist, but do not lose contact. You must be light and agile. Let his force go its full range; Then it will be exhausted. When his force is empty, you may let him fall. Or you may attack if you wish, But you must keep your balance, and not give your opponent a chance to take advantage." Honestly I don't get a great chance to study outside of the form at the moment, so I curious as to what you all think of Rollback. The Ji discussion, (once I got the ideas behind it) was great and informative, thanks to JK and MW for the in depth discussion Anyways please enlighten me to Lu
Hi TQ, The first and last lips on this clip compilation show lu in action. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6VBNyt8t1g"]Assorted "Tai Chi Concepts" clips - YouTube[/ame] The first one could be said to relate to: I use the rollback to make Julie over-reach, which I could exploit with a cai / plucking technique with the rolling back hand (cai-lu), or I could utilise the torso turn to deliver a lead hand strike at the same time. However the clip (which is really for demonstrating a principle only) shows me responding to her retreat by "crowding her all the more." The last clip shows a retreating cai-lu combination. Again these clips are just trying to demonstrate principles in an obvious way. On this second clip, around 1 min 20 in, I use a rollback where I advance my body around the point of contact. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga3gWgh-FuU"]Martial Rotation Assorted Clips - YouTube[/ame] That can be useful with bigger stronger attackers. I sometimes refer to something I call "3 sphere theory." I have a personal, spherical zone of control, so does my opponent and finally there is the mutual zone of action with the point of contact between me and the opponent being the centre. If my opponent is small and weak or has a poor root because he / she is coming in with momentum, I can exploit that and pull him / her into my zone of control (a bit like the technique shown around 1 minute 2 seconds in). If we are fairly evenly matched, I can retreat one side and advance the other around the mutual point of contact / sphere centre (like the technique 58 seconds in). If he /she is much bigger, stronger or more rooted, I can advance my whole self into his / her zone of control and counterattack there. Each involves sensitivity to be able to measure the force of the incoming attack and / or solidity of the attacker. You adapt to the specific circumstances, which is a pretty yin strategy throughout.
Hi JKZ, I dont want to seem picky...do you have any clips of you working with a larger opponant...male maybe? The reason I ask is that all the people I work with are men who are a lot bigger than me...(my limitations, not yours...I cant put myself in your place)... :Angel:
JK, I see you practicing Lu on a much larger scale, would you also say it can be used on a smaller scale (i.e. less movement?) Such as this push hands clip I see a form of Lu almost before each application. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6xOYh6HIMA&mode=related&search="]Chen taichi free-style push-hand - YouTube[/ame] To me it seems as though the opponent is led to emptiness, or over extension then they are tossed around. Is this the general application of Lu?
Hi Carys, I film with Julie because we share a house so she's always on hand. She is also good at being thrown and taking hits without being injured. Bigger, stiffer people are more inclined to break when things like joint locks really go on. I teach a lot of big strong guys in our public classes and throw them around too, but I don't want to turn their lessons into a film shoot. I'd say don't worry about it. They're instructional videos. Try the techniques out and you'll discover they work fine, assuming they're being done correctly. But all our stuff has to pass a test where our smallest person has to be able to work them on our strongest person. Regards, Joanna
Hi TQ, yes it can be done smaller too, especially in push hands, but smaller movement is less illustrative. Also, there's an over emphasis on subtlety in TJQ, I think. Before you can refine power you have to develop some power to refine. Real fights aren't subtle little push hands matches. It's true that a small change in direction of your intention in a clinch can make an opponent stumble, but I don't think subtlety should necessarily be your main training goal, unless you only plan to get beaten up by Tai Chi officionados. Before anyone jumps down my throat, notice I use terms like "over emphasis" which is not the same thing as saying "subtlety is WRONG" I also say "I don't think subtlety should necessairly be your main training goal" rather than "it is INCORRECT to aim for subtlety." Regards, Joanna
hi peeps, this was an interesting application of Lu at a seminar i hosted with my teacher Alex Kozma. I was completely unaware of what he was going to do and punched with good intent, he lead me around his center and made it feel like i was falling down a hole .... very subtle. Luckily he held onto me a bit! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CbJpfe2zqk"]YouTube[/ame] i really think it sums up that quote ... enjoy! cheers Chris
What a shame he took his weight on to his back leg. It would have been even more effective if he'd used his weight to throw you by taking it on to his right leg. In my experience.
ha ha ha ... dont think it could have got more effective ... my reaction wasnt faked and the entire method was very subtle. each to their own. cheers Chris
Hi Chris, I never thought for a minute your reaction was faked. Obviously one can try both approaches. Take care
Put this on the other thread, but I like Lu. Pull them in and then either throw them or use the turn of the waist to attack their elbow. It was the first app I ever saw from the form. V cool. Will watch clips some other time and post my 2p.
Apparantly Lu is my current default mode!! I was playing with a partner in the local park, he was showing me a new 'step in and takedown' application. Unfortunately for him, I often defaulted to Lu and he got unexpectedly thrown headlong into a nearby holly bush. It was an eyeopener for me. It has always been my favourite application (so far)...I would like to get some competency in An though!
An is (cannot remember right now) Push, or press right? If this is the case it is often combined with Lu is it not? Such as you lead your opponent to an overextended position or nothingness, thus uprooting them and if you deliver a well timed push. You can send them sprawling. Is this right? sorry just got out of a 4 hour class and the mind is fried
Well An means to press down, but sometimes Yang stylists interpret it as a push in any direction. I think this may have come about because sometimes a retreating An can be used to press an attacker down and then as they resist upwards you can stick and follow them to uproot them by giving them "more of what they want" - i.e. they're trying to rise up and you add to that. But a more traditional downwards An can be used to uproot an opponent too - when applied in a slightly forwards direction, you can bounce the attacker away like a tiddleywink if they don't get squashed right down. Angle and relative strength can play a part here. To really squash someone down, it can be helpful to overbalance them slightly backwards first - for example a strike to the windpipe can be followed up by pressing downwards into the hollow of the throat. You can use your other arm to hold on to one of their arms and prevent their escape. An also appears in techniques like Brush Knee - some perform it as more of a flat palm and others more like a downwards chop.
I wonder of I could get a few opinions on this issue, perhaps the input of some Aikidokas or Jujitsu folk (Jujitsukas?) would be helpful too. My first picture shows someone being attacked (by the blue figure) and shifting on to their left leg to move their face out of the line of attack. They are also contacting the attacker's punching arm to begin a rollback combined with a throw (cai-lu executed as a throw). to be continued...
My second picture first shows the defender capturing the incoming attack by finishing their rollback/throw with their weight on their right leg when turning right. The attacker (x) is thrown to point (y). Having first emptied their right leg and repositioned it in the desired finish position, they capture the incoming attacker's limb and shift and turn onto their right leg, turning in the rear toes (pivoting on the heel). This technique brings the vertical axis (shown as a green cross in a red circle) as close as possible to the right leg and finishes with the weight entirely sunk down through the right leg. You have to sink and metaphorically "screw down into the earth" over your right leg to make this work well and not be imbalanced yourself. I showed this method to a private student who also studied Jujitsu and he found it to be both more effective and more difficult than what he was used to doing, as it absolutely required him to root properly. My second picture, second option shows what a lot of people do instead and I'm sure there will be plenty of people who might use both methods, depending on the situation. But I'd like to know the advantages of the second approach from anyone who thinks it has some. The second approach involves taking your weight on to your LEFT leg as you turn right and this shifts the vertical axis for the throw (shown as a green cross in a red circle) to the point of contact between the attacker and defender. This significantly reduces the distance travelled by the person being thrown as some of the shifting is done by the thrower, around the other side of the circle. By not making themselves the vertical axis, the effectiveness is (I would say) greatly reduced because some of the potential effectiveness of the technique is leaking out of the back. Now I thought that some might argue that the second approach allows for a smaller, tighter circle which might help them to perform a smaller, tighter joint lock, however I would here argue that the two circles - that of the joint lock and that of the throw are independent of each other in the sense that the size of one is not dictated by the size of the other. There is no reason why a very tight joint lock cannot be applied using method one and the victim would be thrown even further by it at the same time, which would surely further increase the effect. What about relative mass? I thought some might argue that the second method allows a smaller, weaker fighter to counterbalance the mass of a bigger, stronger opponent. Is this really the case, or can you learn to root down through the right leg to deal with anyone? I will admit that it takes a bit of practice to get right - you have to fight the urge to rise up or move backwards, but I do contend that this can be done and it is well worth the effort. If students start to feel like they are losing their balance, I tell them they are not allowed to extricate themselves until the opponent has already been toppled and with a little practice and really sinking down while remaining vertical, the need to extricate themselves at all is removed. I personally consider the second approach to be a contradictory movement (double heavy on the left and / double light on the right) - one that makes the defender vulnerable for a number of reasons a bit too long and complex to discuss just in words and pictures, but needless to say, if I wished to execute the same principle - that of making the axial point the contact point rather than my centre, I would move my feet to ensure I could still finish on my right leg. No one (I think) would argue against the fact that the correct way to implement a rollback backwards would involve taking the weight on to the rear leg (the leg being turned towards) and I believe the same rule applies across the board. Anyway, I just thought I'd request some other opinions on the matter. What are the pros and cons of each method and how do other styles deal with it? This isn't about ego battles - I just wanted to present my opinions and hear any opposing perspectives explained so that I can consider the pros and cons, weight them up against my own approach and see if any of the principles can be assimilated. Sincerely, The Borg.
I agree, the weight forward is overall more economical, and provides for a much sharper/sudden throw, making it more difficult for the miscreant to escape or go with the force.Both approaches will work, and one may have to execute the rear weighted method depending on how well one is handling the incoming force or other variables,,but I feel it isn't the best way to do it by default. Ever notice how a lot of the old guys just operate off the forward weighted leg and really don't perceptibly move back very much?I've found it to be quite useful.myself.
Diagram 2 'releases' the opponent, diagram 1 'dominates' the opponent. The second diagram showed a 'penetrative' force application where your power smothers the opponents centre as they are lead around Your Centre, this is more applicable to secondary application and control of the opponent after the initial throw or movement. 'When the opponent attacks i crowd him all the more' the First picture shows a movement with 'release' as i like to call it. It is very good for initial off balancing or leading in order to throw the opponent heavily. But ... there are actually 3 ideas relevant here and they can be mixed IMO. 1) Leading your opponent around YOUR centre 2) Leading you opponent around a CENTRAL POINT 3) leading your opponent by moving around THEIR centre. The way in which you use these ideas are relevant to what your situation is. Multiple opponents - you may want to use option 3 so that you dont remain so static and are 'one the run' so to speak. Knife encounter - you may want to use option 2 so that you shift your centre away at the same time as leading the blade. one on one - you may want to use option 1 and effect a throw, strike or break. also you can mix them as seen in the video I posted. Alex initially leads me around his centre, then changes to move me around a central point, this is what caused the 'falling down a big hole' effect on my body during the application. Cheers Chris
