You said that your push hands practice is more realistic and emphasizes things like proper body mechanics etc. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPl7300OS5k&feature=channel_page"]YouTube - Pushing Hands Practice[/ame] Looks to me like the only one in your group who'll push with you is the cute blonde. Everybody else folds up like an ugly stretch armstrong doll. Maybe you just need new students/training partners with fighting spirit like that little blonde girl.
Indeed, that is a relevant question. The answer FRAUD does not seem to settle it. No matter how many people propagate it. Again and again, this question comes up, what is going on here.
Thanks now I can get to the real site, but now the video page doesn't seem to work... oh well I shouldn't drag this so off topic don't worry about it.
I find it interesting that Fire-Quan has disappeared from this topic since the top of page 3, when it was pointed out that he did issue a challenge, and as such it is up to him to follow it though and visit lotus neigong. I don't really have much to say about Lotus Neigong. Some of their stuff I like, other stuff I'm not so keen on. However, each to their own. I've seen far worse.
It doesn't have to be intentional fraud or some mystical explanation. I think the most likely explanation is simply human psychology particularly the power of suggestion, group pressure and the desire to please. The mundane explanation isn't exciting enough for most people but I don't see really any need to posit any other explanation until this is ruled out. If people can really effect others without touch they should be able to demonstrate such powers under controlled conditions... does this EVER happen? Nope.
Yohan's a moderator and has been on here for almost 4 years making a total of about 2,750 posts a year which isn't actually that unusual... but yes, he does live on here .
Haw haw haw, this little runt obviously never met the bear in push hands. I would have left him somewhere across the room. Faker than a £9 note. The Bear.
Then bears are nothing when it comes to push hands just look at these old people they end up somewhere at the end of the street (yet still standing strong) : http://www.56.com/w64/play_album-aid-6948194_vid-MTcwMDA0Nzg_o-0.html
EDIT : Apologies for the long post, but it is to serve clearing up the arguments hopefully. If you are a sceptic, PLEASE have the decency to read the entire post before disagreeing, and then if you still disagree, then no worries Hey Guys,I'm a student of Lotus Nei Gong, i thought i'd try and clear up some issues here.Ok, empty force. Now i can completely understand why people believe this is fake as i'm sure Damo can too, although when people are so horribly rude about it...well it's just childish. If you think that a 'cult' is trying to brainwash someone then why should it bother you, as long as you believe you are 'rational' enough to know better? And the people that do fall for it, well then it serves them right no?. Anyway back to the point. I agree that it looks completely ridiculous and fake. Before i joined LNG, i'd seen videos of empty force on the net and had similar reactions to you guys. But when I did join LNG, i found that it is indeed real, sometimes confusing, but real. (I will give an explanation later).For those who say that its psycho-sematic, or people just faking it to be part of a group and 'belong'....inevitably sometimes there are people who get a bit too enthusiastic, but from my personal experience (which is obviously all one can give), this is not the case. I am not the type of person who needs to belong to a group, infact im quite anti-social, and happy with it. Also throughout my life I have always been one to think, question and analyse things. I NEVER (and i rarely used that word cos things are rarely that absolute) believe things blindly. If i find something unusual or seemingly impossible, i accept that there is always a possibility, as most of us do not understand the mechanics of the universe. I did the same with LNG. Here's one example.For those of you who've read the website, (I believe it's still on there) LNG practices something called spontaneous movement (not empty force but related in a way). It is a tool of qi gong ( and for those who are praticing taiji without qi gong.....then you are really missing the point) where the body has involuntary movements due to blockages in the body's meridian channels being cleared out. Imagine a water dam that breaks, resulting in an increased flow of qi. Now the first thing required to activate spontaneous movement is working on the dan tien. Most people's dan tien's are static. Unfortunately this includes most tai chi practicioners too.Most of you reading this will be taiji practioners and unfortunately wont have rotating dan tien's which in itself will, i'm sure, create some controversy, as it is normal for someone who has trained a long time in a passion suddenly hears information that they may be missing a key point, to not be too pleased. I only ask that you entertain the possibility, because a key point it truly is, not just for qi gong but for taiji. I am not going to post what relation it has to taiji here because this topic is about empty force and I cannot keep branching off. Back to the rotating dan tien. This requires alot of time, patience and hard work to even start to achieve any results, as is usually the case with internal martial arts. 2 months was the time taken for me to activate mine, which i believe is quite quick (i say that for the purpose of pointing out the hard work required, as 2 months is usually a minimum, 6 months more common, although i know one or two who took not very long at all). During those two months i became extremely frustrated as i couldnt get it to work, even though i knew it would take a long time, as i was impatient for results. Now this time span and attitude hopefully shows some of you that i didnt want to just turn up at a class and waste my time moving around looking stupid, i would have had far better things to do.The result of this rotation of the dan tien is a huge increase in the circulation of qi through the meridians, giving the dam breaking effect. Now why does the body move? Because through nei gong, the physical body and the energy body become aligned, and one only has to look at normal bodily functions to realise this is not some crazy magic or fake stuff, to realise this is also perfectly normal. Example...a sneeze, involuntary bodily movement, blinking, hiccuping, shivers when you pee , or just in the cold. Also take a look at how emotions affect movement. Anger creates stiffness, just as taiji relaxes you and makes you calm. Nervous energy makes your feet or fingers twitch etc.People can experience it extremely strongly or ever so slightly, neither are better than the other. Myself, it was stupidly strong. So strong in fact that i couldnt walk, stay on my feet or do anything that i wanted my body to do. It wasnt psycho-sematic (apologies if i'm spelling that wrong) as i DIDN'T want it to happen. (most of the time its great fun, but for the purpose of checking for myself that i wasnt being affected, i tried so very hard just to stand in a simple position, almost completely upright, that i had been doing for 21 years since i was born, but with 0 success). (there is an example of spontaneous movement in the video 3:41, the lady with the white coat doing the body wiggle) Now, on to empty force. After many years of nei gong training to completely open all the meridians and cleansing your energy body of toxins, you become a conduit of qi. As taoist scholars should know, there is earth force or energy. Think of it as the opposite of gravity (all force has an equal an opposite force - newton). When your energy body is clean, this force can pass straight through you (and it is this that powers the movements of tai chi once it is mastered, no muscles). So how can you move people without touching them? Through taoist meditation, you expand your dan tien, without limit (although this takes many decades, expanding it to fill a room is a more achievable short term goal). Your dan tien will then encompass another person standing in the room. Here's the important part. Everything in existence vibrates. Everything. The difference between your hand and a rock at atomic level is only the amount of neutrons, protons and electrons, and the frequency in which it all vibrates. You can see how energy moves through a rope when you flick it. You can see it travel down the rope, or when you look at water (which is the natural reflection of the tao according to the classics). Does it seem so impossible then, that your body's energy, which is extremely powerful, travels through the air as frequencies? Just like you can talk to someone, they hear you because the vibration of their voice box reaches your ears through thin air, you can concisouly gain control of your energy, and through expanding your dan tien, send this energy to someone, and affect their dan tien. The other person has to have trained to move. They have to have a rotating dan tien, be soft enough and then it will work. This will not happen to untrained people. This is the truce essence of pushing hands, you affect the other persons energy body, with no force whatsoever. Can you fight with empty force? Doubtful but maybe. Not against ordinary people. Does it matter? No, because the taoist arts are for spirtual enlightenment. THe martial aspect is exceedingly important (developing focus for control of energy) but just a metaphor for the aforementioned purpose. LNG does use it in pushing hands, but only for sensitivity training, because the resulting spotaneous movements lets you feel how the energy moves more clearly. ALso it's great fun. As for the video, when sometimes it seems that the recipients are running too far, this is just like running and slowing down to a stop. It is possible to stop sooner, as the male with the striped trousers can be seen skidding to a stop, not overly forcefully, but more so than the others. (The reason is because he couldnt be bothered going far and having to walk back, i know that because it is me in the video ) Why would monks living in the most remote part of the world dedicating their entire lives to martial arts? To beat someone in a fight? Highly doubtful. So, there it is. I have put a lot of effort into helping to clear things up here, so please if you still dont think its possible, which is perfectly fine, please do not be rude about it. Better still, try it for yourself and then you will really know. As Buddha said (apparently) "Dont take my word for it, try it and see". And dont be so quick to laugh at others, when you dont have a full understanding. People laughed when columbus when he said the world was round, and a million other examples in history. Come on people, you can be better than that. Have an open mind.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view. The above quotes i picked out because, well, rather obviously they let you off the hook so to speak. surely you can see that by saying it won't work on me unless i do to xyz training or 'get with the program' so to speak that it strongly suggests that the reason this is working between you is of your own making on a mental level and nothing to do with that explanation you've written Derren Brown does similar things but doesn't explain it with some elaborate pseudo scientific esoterica.. You've been mentally primed and programmed to play along in this game in my view. Belief can be a very powerful thing. It's not even that all the theory is wrong, some of it on its own and in the right context is sound. But what happens on a quantum scale isn't necessarily applicable or can be replicated at our level of existence and functioning. I think I am open minded, but up to a point - from there I require hard evidence to rule out the likelehood of mental co-operation. Sorry but if it was real it would work on anyone in my opinion, not just the initiated.. I'm made of the same stuff as you. I'd be happy to personally come along and be a test subject and have a push with you guys. I think you're being taken for ride with this stuff. But of course that means I havn't had the requisite training, I'm too low level to understand it etc etc. Typical bs.. If you change your minds and are prepared to put your money where your mouth is the offers stands: try it on me, if LNG can effect me in the way described, unbalance me without contact/force etc, only then will I accept what you are saying as credible and I would happily commit to your teachers methods.
Hi TJ, can you give some details of your training to date, as your profile is sparse. I ask because the above quote flies in the face of my understanding atm and knowing your MA history may help me. Thank you.
Just so you know - i have been trained to move in the taiji way.. i'm relatively soft.. but what defines a rotating dantien. please tell me that means to you.. ? Lets say we agree I have a dan tien.. lets say you put your hand on my belly and you feel something there, lets' say I can get it to move even. Is that it or not - in other words what constitutes a rotating dan tien to you guys ? How do you test or check that you have it ?
Yeah you are made of the same stuff, but I have focused on learning to work with energy, and as a result, my martial applications arent very good at all. I assume you are the opposite, i'm sure you could take me to the floor using tai chi in a martial sense. Sorry but i've made an effort to help people understand our methods, i have no interest in proving anything to you. If you think it's bs then that's fine. Carry on doing what your doing.
A rotating dan tien to me means just that. To check if you have it rotating or not requires a long process. As i mentioned before, it takes a few months to get rotating. The first sign is the spontaneous movement. Everybody is different, some have massive jerks, some just wobble a little, some just lose their balance. Obviously if you have massive movements it is far easier to tell what is going on. Those on the other end who just lose their balance think it is precisely that, just losing balance. For me, the day my dan tien activated....well i can tell you it was an experience. I remember it completely vividly. Apparently I had such a face of shock that damo couldnt stop laughing. I was trying to do bagua circle walking (or mud walking) and i was literally all over the shop. It was like someone completely obliterated on vodka being electrocuted. It took me completely by surprise and well..it was just bizarre. This is the first major indicator of a rotating dan tien. At a higher level (and i always talk from my own experience, so now i will tell you that i'm am ONLY just reaching this level, VERY limited) you can start to feel the energy rotating inside you. At a higher level still, it becomes like a carburator (can someone correct that for me? i dont know anything about cars). It rotates at such a speed that anyone who puts their hand on that persons dan tien can feel it like a car ticking over. Damo has this and i have felt it. Truly bizarre. Hope this answers your question cloudz.
But I want to understand. I have energy just like you. I have been practicing qi gong for seven years - so I have been working with my energy for some time now. I've also been working with others energy in push hands practice. How long have you been working with energy ? well you only provides theory really - and that's fine, and I thank you for that explanation. I want to know and feel it work. i want to feel it in action so I can undersand why that theory is there and is there for a good reason - To support and explain a genuine phenomena. Whether the theory correctly and accurately explains the phenomena is another matter. I'm just looking to experience this phenomena. Also forget about me using martial taiji to 'take you down', I won't if that is not appropriate. I'm happy to just stand there and hold my ground preferably not with you, but your teacher. I'll only do what the other does.
