Live Blade in Self Defense?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by monkeywrench, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    In our case we tested in 2 ways

    1) In the act, as it were, with training knives, with me trying to cut and her trying to disarm, defend.

    2) clothed, using the hip position we learned from 1), as you outlined. We don't tend to wear head gear though. We did have sparring gear and cups, and tried to pound each other though. The training knife we coated with chalk, as we always do.
     
  2. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    As I said pressure testing does both. In the example you have given above the arm bar has already been tested and refined under pressure over the course of many years (centuries even) people understand that the technical theory behind an armbar is sound: it's been developed and tested under pressure conditions and live training. As such, in your example the pressure testing is going to be of relevence the persons mental and physical ability and not the technique itself. However in the video in the op there are techniques that will fall apart under pressure not due to the inability of the practitioner, but because they are fundamentally unsound from a technical perspective. Take for example the idea that you can effectively keep a person at bay with a single foot to the hip. Take for example the idea that you can KO a person with strikes from your guard and your hips elevated from the ground in the fashion shown. We know this is untrue from our experiences of resistant training/pressure testing and if properly tested these techniques will prove unworkable due to their fundamentl technical flaws.
    As further evidence take for example systems that include no pressure testing and no regular live training of techniques and see how unworkable their syllabus becomes. You get people attempting to catch punches and turn them into wrist locks and all manner of strange things.

    To re-cap I totally agree that pressure testing works on the individuals ability to perform under duress but it is also a lab for ironing out the viability of techniques and refining technical process. That's how we ended up with workable techniques to begin with.


    Well yes I totally agree. But that's why proper, simple techniques, trained effectively need to be the focus of the physical instruction of the seminar. If a girl comes home and tries a technique on her fella and it doesn't work because he wouldn't let it... then what does that say about the seminar's usefullness in imparting simple workable techniques effectively? What if she'd have been sexually assaulted on the way home from the seminar?

    No I completely appreciate that. But they should still be demonstrating the physical principles behind the technique and the primary objectives of the technique which will remain the exact same under 'live fire' right?


    absolutley agree for the purposes of self defence for untrained people. But pressure testing should be implemented by the people advocating the technique too.. to ensure what they are teaching is viable. Sifujason has said he has done this but judging from the video I'm sceptical of this claim. If the material taught in the seminar does not resemble the video then why film those techniques at all? If he does not advocate the techniques and tactics he explicitly mentions in the video (such as ko from guard) then what is he doing demoing them?
     
  3. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    For knives, the only grip that works is thumb-bed control. Not arm, not wrist.
     
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's not been my experience. My experience is that any grip works so long as you are positioning yourself so as to isolate the limb's range of movement and hitting them hard at the same time.
     
  5. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I'm very dubious of the claim that you managed to re-create the ferosity, unadulterated sadism, physical, mental and emotional intimidation and brutality of a real rape in these circumstances. What I picture is some borderline crappling with you trying to get your member into your missus whilst holding a knife to her throat... it's not the same.
    I spend a lot of time grappling with full resistance... the game changes dramatically just with th einclusion of strikes. I hate to think what it would be like if there was a knife involved... let alone if I was being sexually assaulted to boot.

    Are you striking full contact to the face and head and body with all available tools? As people have stated, resistance will be met with being beaten unconcious, cut up and then likely raped. I bet your missus was covered in chalk either way?

    My primary problems with the technique you displayed you demoed was that it was shown from an unrealistic position of attack, contained techniques that were physically impossible by your own admission and was presented as viable self defence when it was at best pride saving, last ditch suicide. for a knife rape is it is highly unlikely that you can escape that without dying even with the best of techniques let alone what you demoed.
     
  6. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    Thank you for this detail. Good stuff.

    It apparently got lost in the shuffle (again) so I ask if you could reply to post #127 that was directed at you.

    It is actually on-topic!
    :cool:

    ETA: I snagged this off the corresponding Bullshido thread (which I am not participating in...got flamed right out of the gate by staff...no thanks) so SifuJason I hope you don't mind:

    So you have done this demo (or trained in preparation for it) with live knives? Am I reading this right?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I have found pretty much the same as you jwt.

    Pinning the wrist against anything non-vital and locking their elbow I've had the most success with in training.

    The specific grips become important so that you can "cheat" and get your hand in a good position quickly. Generally speaking, if grabbing cross hand (your right to their right) then it is pinky side grip; if grabbing same side hand (your left to their right) then it is thumb side grip.

    With the knife to the throat while someone in my closed guard, I think the technique I would try out in training is to get my hand between their hand and my throat, then while pushing the hips up, push the attacker's hand above my head, getting them to lean forward over my hips. Then twist to sweep them to my left (their right) and end up in the top mount position. Grab the knife hand with both my hands and thrust it into their thoat or shoulder, then twist. IMHO.
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Killa, pretty much the last time I brought up my definition for pressure testing, it ended up that most people had a definition very similar to your thinking. I'm not going to cut you off, but I will say that there isn't much point in my debating because I already have been done this path and I really can't argue with the way you state it. I would agree.

    FYI: The actual testing of technique I call "scaling" rather than pressure testing. So I have a technique and I change up the variables to see how well the technique scales to the new situations... such as I take an arm bar and then try it out on someone bigger and stronger than me. Then I try it out against multiple attackers. I also try it out against progressively more resistance. At each success I make note of what works and at each failure go back to fundamentals and principles and see what it takes to make the technique work. I may end up throwing out a technique completely or modifying it. What is passed on to students is mostly just the fundamentals that make technique work. They may find the technique doesn't work for them or they might like it a lot.

    I would agree that the last parts of scaling a technique could be called pressure testing.
     
  9. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Hmm... I have found that when you grab the wrist, they can twist the knife out and cut you in your wrist right quick, which is why we don't do it.
     
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Sifu Jason. Re=read JWt's post. Grabbing the wrist if fine as long as you angle away from the blade, in addition you must (as has been said) isolate the arm and therefore range of movement.
     
  11. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Yes, we have done compliant life knife training, similar to what Rebel Wado implied, but only with my highest ranked students. Of the 300-400 who have gone through my door, 10 or so have done anything with a live knife.

    It's all compliant versions of the same drills we teach with resistance, done in a very slow and controlled manner, with someone even more experienced wielding the knife. This is done so people can practice some of the small details with a real weapon that gets lost with many trainers, and so they can diminish their fear in the presence of a real weapon.
     
  12. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I agree if you isolate the arm as well a wrist grab can work; in general though, I have found that going for the thumb-bed (which can be viewed as a "super wrist grab") simply works far better as being your default habit. I have found wrist grabs that work; I have also seen them fail too often to be comfortable teaching them as a default,
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You can only imagine what Sensei Koyo would make of that statement.
     
  14. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Before we continue this theoretical bitch-fest, which is basically what this has devolved into, try the technique, with a partner; use a trainer, and make sure the person on the bottom doesn't hold up the attacker's weight.

    Also, rape from missionary at knife point is not unrealistic. It's not the most likely, and we say that. Heck, we say that is the only position we can even devise a counter from, and that you are in a LOT of trouble to begin with, but some people want to fight back, and this is the best technique we can come up with, and works a decent percentage of the time (no, I don't have stats, it's not 1%, it's not 100%). Did the video show the 5 minute disclaimer I give before the technique? No, it was edited out, just like several drills I showed, and a bunch of other talking. Remember, I had no control over the editing of the film.
     
  15. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I have no idea who that is, but our goal is to generate a level of "Operant conditioning" so people simply don't freeze.
     
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Positioning and striking is all. When attempting/making a wrist grab you need to have placed yourself in a position where muscle recruitment means the arm is isolated - or you are in the process of moving the arm to that position. Similarly you need to be striking with as much power as you can as you do so, preferably to the head or neck.

    In my experience however you grab the knife or wrist, unless you have addressed those two points you are going to get stabbed or cut. A key reason for going for the wrist grab is that such a general grab requires less skill and is more successful under pressure.
     
  17. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    All right. That makes it pretty clear. Thank you very much.

    I made a comment earlier in the thread about doing this sort of thing in a school where children are present. If this training is reserved only for the "elite" then I can retract that comment.

    I still don't agree with even elite live blade training and I do understand other styles do actually do it. So I am not singling out you or your school at this point.

    I will contact a blade master I know (can't do it from work right now) and ask for his input on this topic in general.
     
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Its not the weapon people fear - it's the attack. It's the danger of getting hurt.

    If I was afraid of knives I wouldn't have so many in my kitchen.

    From my perspective training against ferocious attacks by a person with a rubber knife, attacks that can cause me real pain and put me under stress, they diminish any fear I might have. Compliant slow drills with a real knife that won't be 'allowed' to cut me won't do that. for me.
     
  19. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I have found that not to be true (regarding wrist grab being more successful under pressure), though I agree with your fundamentals about controlling arm musculature 100%.
     
  20. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    That's why we do both (sparring, etc with trainers), and slow compliant drills with live knifes. Some people are terrified of doing a disarm with a live knife, even super slow and compliantly. That level of fear is not good, and must be overcome. Hence the drills.
     

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