Little Black Belts?????

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by tkd_princess78, Jan 23, 2004.

  1. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    Please read the whole thread before you make a comment. I've even said I've learnt things from mentally challenged kids - but not self defense... And call me ignorant and stupid all you want, I know that if a 10 year old, or 15 year old is trying to teach me self defense, I'll leave the dojang, because, as I've stated above, I don't want to waste my time with bs...

    I've tried to be polite and such, and yes - I agree that a 10 year old can "teach" a kick, or a pattern, but I'd still leave the (Mc)dojang with a 10 year old "instructor"...
     
  2. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    What is self defense?
     
  3. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    Well, this is a totally different topic, but in short:
    Self defense is anything and everything I would do to make sure I'm able to go home at the end of the day. Both awareness and physical fighting and everything between belong here... But if you want to discuss SD, I suggest you go to the SD forum here on MAP...
     
  4. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    The point was that you said you'd walk if a kid tried to teach you self defense...
    And that may well be valid (it would certainly have much much more credibility coming from a marine, or a bouncer, or similar!).
    But I'm not sure how much (if any) of MA is self defense.
    So I guess the question that was hidden in there somewhere is whether a kid can teach SD is relevant to their becoming a BB.
     
  5. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    Ah, ok. I guess I misunderstood that one :)

    It is my firm belief that a BB knows enough about everything his art teaches in order to achieve the rank. And, even though it's not that good, TKD does have Hosinsul - or "self defense" in the curriculum. So, yes - a BB should be able to teach SD, trough Hosinsul. (And the discussion "Is Hosinsul good SD" can also be taken in another thread, because I think it's not :D )
     
  6. Sedvan

    Sedvan Valued Member

    Yeah

    I have to say i've seen some young guys....who i absolutely love to work with. They have alot of love for the art. Kids half my age, and the same belt as me, although not as many years in the martial arts, they do deserve it. While others are not ready.
     
  7. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    In Korea, and in Tae Kwon Do organizations affiliated with the Kukkiwon/WTF, black belts under a certain age are designated as "Poom" or junior black belts. They are able to perform the necessary techniques required for 1st Dan (forms, sparring, breaking adapted to their abilities), but they are not considered true black belts. They are junior black belts. They are senior among the youngsters, but do not equal the adults.
    Some organizations may have them wear a special red/black belt, or they may wear a traditional black belt. But ultimately they are not considered Dan students on the same level as adult Dan students. And no 18 year old in our organization could ever be promoted to 4th Dan, regardless of what the Kukkiwon might say. The other Masters would never stand for it.
    There is one student who is in his early 20's who is married, with a job, and was a former member of the demonstration team as captain. Our Grandmaster is considering letting him test for 4th Dan, but is troubled by the implication of letting someone that young test for Instructor level. He has to weigh the pros and cons of it.
     
  8. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    IMO, the concept of the junior black belt is a good one. It represents a very high achievement for a child, but still recognizes the difference between children and adults. And, if used properly, should address those differences in a responsible manner.

    On a similar topic, The other night I read an article in this month's issue of BLACK BELT magazine which did a bio/profile on Kimura, the legendary judoka. IIRC, he was promoted to 5th dan at the age of 18 (feel free to correct me if I am mistaken) pre-WW2. What does this have to do with TKD rankings? Keep in mind that the kyu/dan system of judo was the basis of the later belt ranking systems for both karate and TKD. Though this was VERY rare, there is a legitimate historical basis for this.

    I personally have many reservations about people this young being promoted to master ranks. However I do not feel that for the few individuals who have truly proven themselves worthy, I don't feel that they should be dismissed out of hand automatically on the basis of their youth. I agree that far too many promotions are NOT at the level they should be and that someone who lacks the normal age should be looked at with more scrutiny.
     
  9. gould2

    gould2 Valued Member

    Indeed i have read the whole thread, and i was pointing out that younger students (aged between 8-15) have taught me new techniques or pointed out errors when appling these. Which has helped me improve as a MAist/person.

    I however am not arrogant to believe that i am superior to the younger BB's because of my age. It is disrespectful on your part to dismiss them in such a way.
     
  10. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    Is it disrespectful of me to dismiss them "in such a way"? "Such a way" is not wanting a 10 year old (30 kg and under 150 cm) tell me (90 kg, and over 180 cm) how to defend against an attacker my size? If you read the whole thread as you say you did, you will notice that while I don't -like- being teached by kids, I let them teach me patterns, and such, but not sparring and self defense.

    To turn the whole debate upside-down. Am I disrespectful to the ART when I think that a 10 year old shouldn't get the black belt? Or are the so-called masters ("What, your kid is in that MA School? The school where MY son practice has a 2 year guarantee to get the black belt!" <-- real world sentence, overheard by a friend of mine!!) who only see profit, and thus water out the arts in order to earn money? McDojo/McDojang, is what it's called. THAT's what I'm really against, and since the McDojangs pour out kiddie blackbelts, I also don't like the 10 year old "instructor".

    When I started doing martial arts, I learnt that a Black Belt was someone who had superiour skills, who understood the art, and had matured into it. A 10 year old black belt, hasn't had the time to mature at all, and shouldn't have the pressure on him to do so either, because a 10 year old is a KID...

    But I guess I'm chatting with the wall here I sit, so I'll stop now...
     
  11. kwang gae

    kwang gae 광개 Sidekick Specialist

    I like this idea, and plan to use it if/when I start my own school/club. One question though, I assume that they do a "confirmation test" after they reach a certain age, e.g., 16?
     
  12. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Completely agree. Black belt is a symbol of status, a sort of rite of passage into more advanced study, it is often what people ask about first when they hear someone does MA. The ooooh cult mysticism behind a bb has been blown up and played with by the media. So put something like that on a ten year old kid, and he won't be able to handle it. That's giving fertilizer to an ego.

    You could probably argue that there are adults out there who also can't handle it, but the fraction of those compared to the frequency of immature children leaves no comparison. Adults at least have the mental faculty to be ethically responsible for the bb, kids usually do not. Don't get me wrong, if there's a kid out there who is uber mature and understands the bb, can fight well, then by all means give it to him. But to pump them out in a factory is dead wrong. Comes down to the instructor to know whether that kid is ready for it or not. Which sucks because too many instructors these days want to make a McDojo buck.
     
  13. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    When I did TKD, they would hand out Pooms to children, and when they turned 16, they would have them start all over from white belt.
     
  14. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    I'm testing for instructor certification at the end of the month.

    There will be no black belts in my school who are not old enough to graduate high school.
     
  15. MaverickZ

    MaverickZ Guest

    *is a proud holder of a Junior Black Belt from the ITF*
     
  16. Sedvan

    Sedvan Valued Member

    Tkd

    Look, i deal with one or two cases of this crap. I'm secound dan. Their 2nd poome. They still don't know that their belt doesn't count for crap compared to that of an adult. They think their great. When i assist in the instruction of the children, there are a couple black belts that think that the belt is what makes the person, not the other way around. Let them think they are good, when they are certainly not.
    But at the same time, there are about 4-5 kids i really like, that have black belts, they come to class with shining eyes, sponges for brains, and open ears. They love to be there, and it's the most rewarded thing ever. It really depends. If the child has no respect for elders, he should have his belt taken away, and replaced with somthing a little more fitting. In many ways, the belt system, should be destroyed, or atleast reformed.
    In all honesty, children somtimes need a good whipping. Thats the truth.
     
  17. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    great idea, lets see if you say that in a couple of years when you realise kids are often the bread and butter of a club :). (Not that it is a good thing).
     
  18. TKDjoe

    TKDjoe Valued Member

    Being as how I'm 50 yrs old, these threads about young black belts always surprize me as to how anyone could think someone who is 16-21 yrs old is mature! If you don't want them to be a black belt until they are mature enough to handle it then you need to wait until they are about 30.
     
  19. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    rubbish. 16/17 you may have a point but a 22+ year old sorry.

    My instructor got his 5th Dan at 31. He's been running several clubs for 10 years+.
     
  20. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    And I would try very hard not to have a 10 year old black belt instructing adults. Would the 10 year old know technique? Probably. Point is, having a 10 year old teaching adults in whatever capacity is an insult to the concept of adulthood. As much as possible, you want people taught by their peers or older, not someone much younger than you, unless you have no choice.
    The team members practice and work with each other. They are all within the same age range. Adult students need adult Instructors. Young children can be assisted by junior black belts. Adults need adult guidance.
    Aside from the fact that young black belts generally are not mature enough to watch for problems and correct mistakes.
     

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