Here's a catch 22, do you teach a child to go for the throat, genitals, eyes and generally other unpleasant last-gasp (or first gasp depending on your point of view ) techniques, and then take responibility for picking them up from school after the've injured their fellow classmates "playing"? "With great power, comes great responsibility"
Uh, Tosh, the kid doesn't have to be a BB for that to happen. Been there done that.....unfortunately...
The age of a student doesn'y matter i have saw a very young loooking black belt. I saw her fight and i saw she deserved the belt that she recieved, it was obvious that she had the skill. If what i have read is true that would mean that what you are saying is that if you are young and have the skill to become a black belt they shouldn't get it. I started at a very young age and when i had got my green belt a grown man joined our club and he treated me no different than all of the older green belts. So what i think is t hat if you earned (the main word is earned) your belt you have earned the same respect that all the other belts have earned. If you deny this read your tenants. Courtesy- Showing respect to your instructor and to all fellow students.
Yes Tagb, You are correct. Just because a person has the skill doesn't mean that they have the mental ability to be a BB. I have met many BB that were very skilled, but outside of sport sparring they had no mental ability to handle even simple real world situations. Add youth to that senerio and how can a person, without emotion, believe children are capable to truly be BB. Funny how the tenant don't address ego directly and respect is earned not demanded or given by wearing a belt. I have little or no respect for most BB and as I have the opportunity to meet more that feeling get stronger. Most of excellent technique, yet only in a controlled senario were variables are controlled. I could rant all night, yet it will offer nothing to the discussion. Mountainsage
Black belt As I stated in another post somewhere on here. as long as whatever criteria that the school has is reached by an individual than that person deserves whatever rank they have achieved. I like the school I am at now. Our instructor does not believe in set times to receive belts (ie. you must have x amount of hours to get this belt or that belt). He comes up to us and says you are ready to test for your next rank, and we set up a testing time. Because of that I quickly went through 5 ranks, now it has slowed down dramatically, because I am at a level where I need to be at until I improve the next stage. On top of that this beliefe that the black belt is the end all be all, I do not believe in. I believe once I get my black, that will be the time that I really start learning, right now I am just preparing to learn, I am just gaining enough knowledge to truly be taught.
-Something that occured to me in re-reading this thread. Certain arts were created more as "children's arts". (BTW-this is not a bashing of these systems, I've studied and hold dan ranking in some of them, it's just the historical fact that they were either created or modified for teaching school children.) -Arts like shotokan and the other Japanese ryu of karate-do and to a large extent tae kwon do were largely modified from their original combat versions for the teaching of children in the public schools. If you read Funakoshi's book on Karate-do, it clearly states that the purpose of karate-do is not in defeating one's enemy, but in the development of character and mastery of oneself and ego (I am paraphrasing, I would have to look up the exact quote, but this is close and gets across the gist of what he was saying). This is completely opposite of a combat art like Ryukyu kempo jitsu (the older Okinawan combat system that Funakoshi's instructor, Itosu, modified into kara-te for the program that he put into the Okinawan schools and Funakoshi took to Japan), jujitsu, or other combat systems that the main emphasis is to survive, usually by taking out your opponent as quickly and effectively as possible. Since most other Japanese karate-do systems and tae kwon do were at least strongly influenced by this factor, having a child/ junior black belt in these systems just makes sense. -I can see the arguement for a different standard for children and adults within a "school children's art" and upon more reflection, I can also see why those who have only trained in pure combat (vs. sport character ed. system-in Japanese the martial ways using the prefix "do") arts may object. Even the "-do" systems have combat-oriented training, but most of that is reserved for the adults or when reaching dan levels (in many cases this begins at 3rd dan w/ most systems). IMO it is logical for these systems to have a seperate rank for the kids (in TKD, the junior black belts are called poomse, while the adults are dans; in the military, think warrant officer). I personally would not award it to children below a certain age or without at least 4(+) years of training in the regular childrens cirriculum. If they stay with their training, and reach the age for adult testing, then they can move up to the adult standards. Others may disagree, but to me this makes sense.
The General idea Kwan Jang, I believe you have hit on the general idea I am try to get to. It seems as that if a person gets into TKD as a older person, I will not specifically define older, the "Do" is more important than the "Taekwon". TKD is a great art, yet under the current trends any future value could be in trouble. We are losing the past in favor of the convinece and prestige of the future in sport. Mountainsage
I don't think the young age is the problem. I think it's how it's taught. If there are a lot of kids in a class, they won't really be individually taught. The instructor has to worry more about teaching the whole class, so he can't personally tell them about the Tenets of TKD, what they are doing wrong and why in their form, etc.
Listen to the last few post folks. In the last two post we ended up with comments from those who received black belts under 16. The key here is that they are still training. They have goals to acheive and objective to reach and they did it.............good for you guys. People who deam that "how tough " someone is should determine the grade..... is nuts........ there is always someone who can take you no matter how old you are. If sparring is that big a deal then pit age groups together......... besides isnt the basis of the martial arts to discourage unwaranted aggression and channel it to focus and control. I agree that the standards should be the same, just lets not expect a 300 lb male to be the only one who can tough it out so the 120 lb female doesnt get to grade.............. by eliminating the kids were not far from eliminating the small and weak. (Of course none of us see ourselves that way) How you gonna train when your 60? Mike O'leary
You know, many schools give out black belts to even adults that may not deserve the belt. Each school has their own set of standards, and if those standards are met, then they receive a black belt. I don't have a problem with youngsters being black belts. I do, however, have a problem with black belts that are "half serious," at any age. I think there should be a difference between Adult and Junior black belts, absolutely. That is why a lot of schools have developed a "poomse" system. That allows younger people to test for the rank of black belt, usually awarded a half black, and half red belt. I think children and adult tests should be slightly different due the fact that most children are not as advanced as most adults. If you have a kid that joins your school at age eight,works extremley hard to advance and is ready to test for black by age 12 or 13, who is to say that he isn't ready to be a black belt? Just because he's young, and smaller... Taekwondo is not about size, or even age. It's about discipline. I know many black belts under the age of 12; Some of the kids maybe shouldn't be black belts, but not because of their size or age, just because they aren't serious about Taekwondo. If you see a young black belt, please DON'T underestimate him or her. Just because adolescents are young and inexperienced in life, doesn't mean they are inexperienced in Taekwondo. I know many very talented young black belts, who, in many cases, can hold their own against some of the adult black belts I've come across. I think even adult black belts can learn from junior black belts, and I am man enough to admit I have learned a few things from some young people. So, I have no qualms with young people earning ( key word is EARNING ) their black belts... - MaxAdam
i believe officially, you can't get a "dan" until ur a certain age. the degrees are called "poom" until u get to a certain age (i forgot the exact age) then they change into dan. im not sure about the legal procedure and everything for this, but i know little kids aren't called "3rd dan" they're called "3rd poom" or something
Around the Mulberry bush Once again, just because an individual has the skills and has spent the time, that doesn't make them a black belt. You can train a monkey to go throught the movements necessary for BB, in time. You can't teach the mental aspects and the maturity that comes with living a few years. If skills or techniques are all that are necessary to be a BB then why bother with belt? Mountainsage
In Karate... sho as in Shodan....or first degree........means small......... or beginning..... in other words.. first degree black belt is the beginning.... like you just finished high school and now you can enter university....of course all the kids in the last year of high school figure there pretty hot stuff. hahahah Mike O'leary
Will never forget my first "black belt only" seminar, "Heeeyyy, how come I have to stand at the back???" Sheesh, time to start again !
here they have changed it whereby the junior blackbelts need not take a test to get their bb once they reach 15. it used to be we had to take another exam to be promoted from poom to dan.
Child Black Belts How do you all feel about kids becomming black belts? Personally, I think its pretty rare for a kid to be ready for a black belt mentally. I dont like the idea of little 6 year olds being black belts and I really dont want my own son to be a BB until he is at least a teen.
I don't like the idea of child black belts either. At our school, you have to 15 AND show some level of maturity. In other words, if you're an immature 15 year old, you won't be graded. Even though I don't like the idea of child black belts, I also sometimes look at it in a way that maybe we shouldn't put so much emphasis on belt levels, so it shouldn't bother me that much if a seven year old has a black belt.
Belt ranks are supposed to show skill level though. Otherwise, they wouldn't be there in the first place. I hate the idea of child black belts. To me, that says that whatever school they attend is a McDojo. You see a lot of that kind of stuff around here, mainly from TKD places.
It's hard for me to think they really earned it... I mean I think being a black belt is more than knowing the patterns, one-steps, and how to spar, it's a mentality. As far as most of the kids I've seen are concerned, Taekwon-do is just an after school shin dig where they get to beat mits up and be like Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris or the Power Rangers. I've seen only one kid who had a black belt actually fit the mind set, but he unfortunately passed away in a car accident, along with his younger brother, who was three belts behind him but well on his way to the same capabilities. I don't really think it's too good an idea to give a 6-10 year old a black belt, not only because most kids that age don't really realize just how much more of the art there actually is, but just that their entire training schedule for their later lives would be all out of whack. I mean, if a kid masters 9 patterns by age 7, s/he's not going to have to perform them for a grading for at least two or three years, how will s/he remember? To them, why should they? I imagine that kids that age only see the black belt. To them there isn't much more than 1st dan, so why continue? Wouldn't they get bored of it upon realizing that this whole black belt stuff, once you get it, requires a lot more effort? I think that if you're going to give a kid a black belt, give them a first degree until they understand the depth of the martial art. Then, once they've matured from the "Lets kick the crud out of the shield and yell!" mentality and moved onto the "So... this is what that protects against? Just in case?" mentality, re-test them and then go from there. I'm speaking, of course, from the standpoint of one who has only observed kids in class as well as on my dojang's demo team. Maybe it's just my school, but kids seem to only use TKD as an outlet, something fun to do, just like playing tag or cops and robbers. Class is playtime for them, except they're told that they have to do something (patterns, drills, etc...). Meh, I say re-test them once they seem to be more mature (if they stick around for that long...) -Kat
