You tell 'em girl. Using the school that I attend as an example, there is probably in excess of 250 kids enrolled, and maybe 25 adults (by adults in this case I mean out of school and self-supporting). OK, take a person like me, I started TKD at age 42 and even though I had been exercising for 2 years previous, I had next to no athletic/sports related experiences to help me. So just like KickChick I'm d@mm proud of the fact that not only did I not quit, I've lasted long enough to reach the goal of 1st Dan. While most of my 40 ish friends are talking about quitting smoking and loosing weight and starting an exercise program, I'm there now. These 40 ish friends and co-workers think I'm some sort of lucky person who received a divine gift, when in fact, they were laughing at me years ago when I started taking a "kids" sport. Where were they all of the times I sweated and ached in the joints and muscles? They ain't laughing now, rather, they sometimes ask me for advice and they get mad when I tell them this: There are 3 ways to loose weight, 1. eat less, 2. exercise more, 3. eat less and exercise more. There is no other way, but they are insulted when they hear this. One sign of a person who is mature is that they don't care if someone else got what they got at less cost then they paid, either money, time , or physical work. Life is not fair and so you do what is best for you . If you think that there are too many BBs out there that "purchased " their rank and it's having a major effect on your self-esteem, then quit TKD and take up a more manly MA. The night I received my BB, I was the only adult who was promoted, there were 5 kids also receiving Jr. BB. None of them tested with me. They sparred with kids like themselves. Do I care if they didn't have to endure the pain and suffering that I did? NO, I'm happy for them and I really hope that every single one of them sticks with TKD for many years to come. Whenever my SBN (6th Dan) awards an adult a BB, he always comments on how he holds the highest respect for the parents of children and adults in general who make rank. Working a full time job, taking care of the kids, maintaining a home, and spending 3 or 4 nights a week training in TKD is hard to do and if someone who does all of this makes it to BB, then they have every right to toot their own horn. I would think that a fellow martial artist would have the necessary background information to be able to relate to the amount of dedication that it takes for someone like KickChick or myself to make it that far. I think it's much more honest to simply state your accomplishments than trying to insinuate that "so and so" worked much harder for their belt then you or I did, and in so doing imply that my rank is a drag on the rest of the TKD community and is bringing the rest of the worlds martial artists standards down. We spend too much time trying to brag about ourselves by pretending to be killer martial artists complaining about how easy some people that we have never met got their BB. Maybe we should award a BB in the art of being a sour puss. End of rant. Tom
OK aikibunyee, You win. I will now admit it. Ready, here goes: For the most part, these days aikibunyee's Black Belt means very little to me. Done. Tom
I disagree. For one, it shows how much time a person has devoted to learning. and It all depends on the individual. I work hard for each belt (i'm only green belt)... I don't just go to class, i try my best to improve and perfect everything i learn. So when i get to the next belt, i feel like i've really achieved something. I know there are others who just go to class, all they care about is doing something just well enough to pass the next belt testing. If i were to do that, i wouldn't feel like i really earned it. So how much a black belt means all depends on how hard you try to achive it.
Just thought I'd toss in my two cents: I got my BB about two weeks after I turned 15, after training for five years. I trained (still do) an average of three nights a week. Did I work as hard as the adults who'd earned their black belts at my dojang? No, probably not, mostly because I was only ten when I started training. Did I work hard, and show as much dedication as a kid can be expected to? Yeah, I think so. Do I assume that, when someone who says my black belt does not mean as much as someone elses, because I was under 16 or 18 or 21, etc, when I earned it, has no idea what they're talking about? Yes. I worked for my rank, and I am proud of it. I didn't need to be older to get that. I think all that depends on the school. I just recently left that school, after some changes resulted in a huge loss of students. I was the only non-instructor black belt there. I could have remained for another month or so, and in February, I could have tested for my 2nd dan. ONe of the main reasons I chose to leave was because of that. THere's no way I could have been ready to even try for 2nd dan in February. But I was pretty sure, with the way the school was currently being run, that I would have been promoted anyway. That offends me, because it's implying that the rank doesn't mean anything. The main problem that I see is when schools, regardless of age, award ranks taht haven't been earned. IT doesn't matter if someone's 5 or 50. If they work hard, and their instructor feels that they should be promoted to whatever next belt, then they should be. If they're not ready, don't give them the next belt. That's not a problem. But it's a disgrace to the art to promote people for the sake of promoting them.
Tom: Well said. Your "rant" describes my journey fairly well... I started at 41, along with my 6 year old son and 13 year old step-son. After almost four years of lessons, we all tested for black belt at the same time. My step-son and I both passed, as did another 15 year old who tested that day. My son, who was almost 10 passed the first 4 parts of the test, but failed on one of the breaks. He retook the test again 8 months later and passed. I've been intrigued by how many fellow students can pass judgment over the internet, without having ever met any of us, and without having seen how hard we've trained or how we perform, about training at "McDojos" where they [gasp] have families training together (as if that's a bad thing), and where they award black belts to children! I am very proud of my two sons' accomplishments, as well as my own, and have grown somewhat tired of having to defend my youngest's accomplishment against allegations that not only does a 10 year old never deserve to have a black belt, but that all training at that age is nothing more than having the child babysat while he plays around in funny pajamas.
Enough is Enough Alright folk this put in the time and get a black belt thing is getting a bit old. Just because student X spends the required time and can perform the required techniques does in no way qualify that individual as a black belt. There are many mental and mentality skills that need to be learned and show a high level of comprehension before a BB is "earned". These mental skills are unattainable to a child because their brains have not been develop by experiance or exposure to situation to train this into them. The most valuable trait to a MA is life experiance and being able to understand said experiances. A simple example is working through pain/exhaustion, most children have no real baseline for either and in there stage in life children are unable to push them to or beyond their threshold for either. Yes, this is a childern are soft nowadays arguement. I see it in my own children and others in the dojang I attend. My kids do not participate in TKD for that very reason, my decision not theirs. Mountainsage
Re: Enough is Enough You are allowed to speak for your own children, not mine. You haven't seen my kids train. You haven't seen my kids perform. You know NOTHING about them, except for their age. Working through pain and exhaustion? My son, then 9 and a red belt, had a skate board accident and severely broke his left arm just above the elbow. The doctor told us that on a scale of 1 to 4, with 4 being the worst, this was a 5. He was back in class three days later, in a cast and with 6 pins holding his arm together, doing kata with one arm, and helping the other kids with their foot/hand/stance positions in their katas, all because he didn't want to miss training time and put himself off track for testing with his brother and me (our school requires about 300 more hours of classes for juniors to reach black belt than for the adults, so Derek worked extra hard to try to get there at the same time... his goal, not mine. He'd go 5 days a week instead of 3. And took 6 months of private lessons in addition to regular class). His surgeon was also a martial artist, and before letting him participate in class, we discussed it with the surgeon. Shortly before his first black belt exam, he was participating in a tournament that had a lot of state-level competitors. He took 2nd in kata. During the sparring competition, his first match was against a kid who was a good 6 inches taller and outweighed him by 20 pounds. Early in the match he took a very hard round house kick that hit him exactly where his arm had been broken. It was obvious that it hurt, a lot. The other kid went on to get a 4-0 lead, before Derek landed a solid side kick just below the kid's solar plexus. The other kid was in retreat for the rest of the bout. Derek wound up losing that fight 5-4, but I was very proud of him for gutting out the match after taking that first kick to the arm. The other kid wound up winning the division, beating the next two opponents 10-0 and 9-1.
I have to say Tom that I enjoyed your post very much! ... and I couldn't agree more with this statement you made. We can actually apply this to the other active thread here is the TKD forum "Where is the real TKD?" As far as pushing kids to exhaustion etc etc.... our kids experience a level of such that is sustainable for their age. I have seen kids reach an emotional breaking point... fighting back tears, digging deep into themselves to find the added energy to go on when exhaustion seems to have gotten the best of them. Our master instructor keeps it in check making sure he doesn't go too far but makes the younger students really work and pay for that black belt with theirsweat and sometimes yes, tears. (shhhh I too cried at my bb test )
What is a blackbelt I believe there is to much emphasis on what a black belt is, and who should have one. Simply put a black belt has a different meaning for everyone, and everyone who studies the martial arts under a belt system has a different reason for trying to attain one. I firmly believe that there is no wrong reason for trying to attain the level of BB, except for "My mom made me do TKD" It is a personal experience, and that experience is intended to be a learning curve. This is exactly the same for children as it is for adults. The difference between the two is simply life experience, and what is taught to them. I stress very heavily etiquette and punctuality with the kids I teach, however for the adults I expect they already know this, so why put an empasis on that? I'd much rather teach something historical about TKD that adults can appreciate more, or even some of the underlying philosophies. These are some things that children can't grasp because frankly I don't think they care to much about it during that age. Adults and children may learn the same techniques and skills (unless it is physically unsafe for a developing child to do so) but how they get there is a little different. Why should a kid be faulted simply because of their age for attaining a BB? Why should an adult be faulted because their physical ability decreases as they age? (and this is in no way a jab at the older members here, just a simple fact of life, one that I'm starting to feel . . . and I'm fairly young!!!! ) The level of 1st dan is simply another level, much the same as a yellow belt, a green belt, red belt . . . etc. They all have specific lessons that must be learned before moving on, and they all have pre-requisite reqirements to achieve. This varies from school to school of course, but the one thing that stays consistent with legitamit schools is work ethic. If anyone is working hard and learning, and achieving the requirements for the next level, at their ability not the person next to them, then I see no reason why they can't be invited to test for the next level. The responsibility of creating black belts that are credible, confident, and compotent is soley up to the head of the dojang. Although I follow the KKW base curriculm there is no one in the world who will be able to tell me who to invite and who not to invite for the next level, and that is the same for anyone who teachs. That is the choice of the instructor, and no one should have any other input into it, other than the student who must show they are ready for the next level.
In are school its a proper black belt no matter what your age is but you cant sit your 2nd dan untill your 16
Thoughts Ipscshooter, before arguing with your heart, engage the mind. The defense of a imagined attack directed at one's child is a verty poor position to argue from. Your child may be the exception or he may be what every child should be capable of in life. Your post had my attention until your went off on sparring and down the tube it went. Sparring in tournament is NO judge of the quality or ability of any martial artist. Tourney sparring measure people for a moment in time only. Artikon, you make a very valid point with your questions about age and ability, yet ask the reverse of each of your questions. Can you justify reverse position without emotional logic? Should the standards be relaxed to allow students with lessor ability to pass? and the most over asked question, Is this a martial art or Sport? Is TKD looking for the most BB or the most qualified? Mountainsage
Mountain Sage, The criteria is flexible depending on the individual. I have known older people who possess incredible physical ability, stamina, and strength. For them the technical grading would be a little harder. Now say for a child who hasn't physically developed enough to say develop enough power to do any real damage, or for example a very uncoordinated overweight child who has problems learning, is it fair to judge them technically on the same scale? Their physical abilities are different, and their learning curves are different. Another example I want to cite is from a student at a sister school. I was invited to watch a testing and do a sparring seminar with them and this little girl who just started has crippled legs. Her physical disability is a determent to TKD training, but her spirit is fierce. She works harder than anyone in the room and never gives up, even if she can't do a proper front kick, or can't properly hold a stance because she uses crutches for support. How can a person use the same technical criteria for this child, against say a 20 year old fit adult with natural ability? In my opinion you can't, you can ony judge them by their personal improvement and understanding. Now to quickly answer your other questions, cause I'm firing this off between my training and a class I have to go teach No I don't think the standards need to be relaxed, just realized that you can't judge everyone the same. Relaxed standards don't push a person to their full potential even if all the potentials are at different levels. It is both a martial art and a sport. There is seperation between the two however both fall under the umbrella name of TKD. Martial art deals with self defense and personal growth and development of the spirit, body, and mind. Martial sport is simply that . . . sport. It's up to individual instructors what they want to emphasize. To answer your final question. . . . I really can't answer. I know what I look for, but I don't know what the guy down the street looks for. Again I feel that is up to the individual instructors and what they are in it for. I know why I do TKD, I know why I teach TKD, and I know why I continue learning TKD and developing myself . . . do you? Thanks for the questions MS!!! Incidently, have you decided when/if you wish to test for 1st dan level?
knee jerk response My instant response is who is getting the most out of having flexible standards? Somehow I can't see the students truly getting the best from flexible standards. There are isolated situation were flexiblity seems warrented, yet is that really best for the student. Would these individual train and try less if the belt incentive was remove? or if they were held to a higher standard would they push harder to meet those standards? Using the crutch example is a bit different than your average kid example and a bit of a low blow. How do you debate that without looking like a heel or a person with flexible standards? As far as my move towards BB, after much though, I find that I am not at the level mentally or physical to be a BB. My personal standards and expectations are high for myself and I do not want flexible standards to taint my BB. I recieved two of my colored ranks by flexible standards and that haunts me still today. How can I run off at the mouth about standards and not hold myself to those same standards? I may be a red belt the rest of my life, but I'll be the best damn red belt I can be. Mountainsage
Sorry I know the crutch thing is something you can't argue against, it was a low blow However I stand by the idea that having standards to meet the individual is needed. No one in the world should be judged against someone else, in anything. The flexability is there to better suit the student. However this is not a tool to make it easy for them. It is something to drive them. There may be certain things that they are good at that they may be judged much harder on simply because they have the cabability to do it better than others, or the grasp the idea better. I'll use me for an example this time so you can argue and not come off as a jerk I have always been heavy in competition and under KKW of course you have to be able to demonstrate olympic sparring. As successful as I had been as a color belt I had never really been overly challenged in this aspect. For my first dan test I was paired with a national level competitor, from a different school who showed up for one specific purpose, and that was simply to spar with myself and another candidate. For this I think I was judged much harder than the other candidate because it was something I was simply better at then they were and had a natural affinity for. The sparring partner reflected that, as well as my score on the exam which was far below any of my other criteria. The flexability can work either way, it is not something that is there to make it easier for a person, just a way to give them a goal and make them work hard and drive for it. I see it as a way to keep the students interested and training. It's a feeling of accomplishment that keeps people taking the martial arts (more often than not at least) and if a student feels like they are learning and moving forward, then great! Otherwise most people don't have the drive needed to stay static and they quit. I know that makes it sound easy for them . . . but again I'm going to fall on the blanket answer and say the quality control is up to the instructor. Cop out answer I know, but really who else is it up to? As for your testing for BB, I completely respect your idea to hold off until its right for you. Like I said before BB is different for everyone and everyone has a different reason for trying to attain one. Don't give up your beliefs simply to get a piece of cloth to wear around your waist . . . after all isn't one of the tenants indomitable spirit? Good discussion
Re: Thoughts I wasn't presenting that experience as an example of his ability as a martial artist, but as a matter related to his broken arm and his ability to "work through pain" which you had earlier said children are incapable of doing.
More I think there is a miscommunication here. I am saying student need to be judged against an empericial standard, not each other. Unfortunately, in this Bart Simpson society flexibility is used to making things easier on people not challenge them to achieve. I understand that this may not be true in your school, yet with children in most programs I've had the opportunity to observe flexibility has been used to the point of creating dancers, not MA. This begs the question, Are we train people to get belt or be effective in a stressful survival situation? Mountainsage
Re: More Depends entirily on the syllabus. If the syllabus to gain the next grade is; Student can perform X, Y and Z and X, Y and Z = Being effective in a stressfull situation then fine. If not, then fine, but make sure you students are not brimming with overconfidence about thier abilities. For myself getting a BB was like, cool I've passed the entry exam, now I can start learning how to defend myself. But then I graded to BB when I was 21 and could be pretty honest with myself about my ability to defend myself in a stressfull situation. There is an argument here as to what message passing a student gives?? We should train people to get the belt, the by-product should be how effective they are, but this requires a rock solid syllabus which is sorely lacking in the most.
Tosh I agree with the need for strong curriculm. This is the defining factor between a school that is really training children, or just making them play at TKD. Training kids is tricky because of different levels of maturity, size, up bringings, and reasons why they are there. The material presented to them must be interesting, fun, and active enough to keep their attention. Having said that it also must push them to their personal best physically and mentally. I view TKD training for kids as another avenue of development. Just like parents do for their children, or the education system does. TKD can't replace either by any means, but can put a stress on certain things that neither can't as well. We all know the activity level and fitness level of kids (at least in North America) is not great. This is something that can be pushed in TKD, as well as self defense, forms, sparring, etc . . . Generally kids who get involved with staying in good physical condition, will continue to do so as an adult I believe. They just need to be aware of the benifits, and how to do it properly. As for self defense, which is a tricky part for me . . . it has to be presented to a child different than an adult, and in fact self defense for a child is different than an adult. The base principle of staying safe, and stay aware are the same, but how can you teach a child to do an escape from a grab if they physically are not able to do so, no matter how good their technique is. Again on this point you can't judge a child's self defense against an adults simply because it's a different beast. Unless kids are starting to go to pubs . . . then maybe
