Little Black Belts?????

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by tkd_princess78, Jan 23, 2004.

  1. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -The junior black belt designation or poom in Korean is a wonderful idea IMO. Children are more capable than most adults in some areas and less so in others. For example, parts of their body mature at different stages (knees and neck being last), and their bodies are not meant to absorb impact like an adults. I would feel negligent (and in many cases would be found so in a court of law) if I trained a child to the point of ingraining it into their muscle memory in an adrenal dump techniques or strategies that would maim or kill. OTOH, I would be negligent if I was not training adults (espescially women) in last resort training.
    -To the credit of children of what, with proper training, they can accomplish just look to the open forms or weapons divisions of the NASKA or NBL circuits. They didn't seperate the age divisions to make it easier on the kids, they seperated them so the snotty nosed brats wouldn't embarrass the old folks.
    -I really feel a junior black belt is justified for what a child can achieve. For our testing, much of the cirriculum is similar between the pooms and the dans, though there is less grappling and contact for the kids. Also, the conditioning requirements are a bit less for the kids. (Ex. adults: 7 mi. run, 1,000 crunches, 1,000 deep knee bends, 250 push ups-men, ect. Under 16: 5 mi. run, 500 crunches, 500 deep knee bends, 150 push ups-boys,ect). If you have a program that starts children at a young age, you have to give them someplace to go.
    -Finally, I was originally not going to say anything since i don't want to start a flame war or anything, but both Andrew and Terry from East Winnepeg seem to feel the need to bash the belt system at every oppurtunity. While they have the right to voice their opinions on this forum and obviously can do whatever they please within their own school, I would like to excersise my right to defend it. I know that some people abuse the rank process and get too far caught up in it, so much so that they often forget what it is supposed to represent (This arguement could be used against any system or institution within society). However, in education, there is a difference between a high school graduate, an associate's degree, a bachelor's degree, a master's, and a doctorate. IMO (take it or leave it as you choose) if a system's cirriculum has ongoing cirriculum at the higher rank levels as well as progressive demands both mentally and physically, then I think that degrees of black belt are appropriate. Can you get by without them? Of course. But, I do feel that they are a useful tool that can have definite value. Just as you can be as well or better educated without a university degree, but that does not mean the degree system within our universities is a abad idea.
    - I will admit that I have limited patience for rank that is either self-promoted or done due to politics rahter than a progressive merit. I myself was offered sixth dan by Kukikwon in 1999 (which was 4 yrs. earlier than the required time limits) based more on politics and I repectfully declined. Also, when I do my own workouts, I usually do the indoor or summer training in shorts and a tank top. If someone sees me, the quality of my technique should speak about my abilities far louder than the stripes on my belt would. OTOH, though I take pride in pushing myself past my previous limits on a regular basis, my last rank exam pushed me out of all comfort zones and forced me to grow (thanks in no small part to the creative, thorough, and incredibly sadistic planning of my instructors). Due to that and what I and my fellow candidates went through, I am proud of that rank, just as if I had achieved my doctorate (which BTW, I am trying to make time to go back for in the near future).
     
  2. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Not bash, afterall I still use it. (Within the kids classes)

    But recognize it for what it is, something that is different between every school.

    It serves as a motivational and retention tool, I just don't believe it is neccessary or desired for adult classes. I feel it can, and very often leads to problems, and is not to be taken to seriously.

    The way a school structures it's belts has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the quality of instruction at that school.
     
  3. KiWarrior

    KiWarrior Banned Banned

    Write an article?

    Sad man, really sad. The first two are fine but the last...

    4th dan at 18... I'm sticking with my viewpoint.

    ~9 years (IF it took 3 to get the first dan, doubtful) to get to a 4th dan....that would make the kukkiwon a Mc..., sorry very respectable organization
     
  4. Epsilon

    Epsilon New Member

    I started training in MA when I was 7, I got my BB when I was 13, and I was tested with the adults. No matter what. Everybody in that test room were treated the same no matter what age they were. I remember that day very well, I was tested for 12 grueling, painful hours to achieve that goal. I cannot see a child under 11 go through what I went through in a BB test. But if you did when get your BB under that age the question that you should ask yourself is did you deserve your BB? and did the actual real learning of being a BB and a MA hit you?
    I'll tell you this after I got my 2nd Dan BB at the age of 18, but this is only my opinon. I looked at my BB and seen what it really meant to me, it meant years of knowledge, and commitment. and having a 2 red sashes on each end of the belt, something came to me, is it very neccessary to have these on. Is having a 2nd degree BB important being more than a BB, or is it all the same, but you just know more. But truly I cannot see a child under the age of 11 to be BB. That child hasn't lived a childs life, they lived somebody else's dreams, and expectation. Another words a hockey parent.
     
  5. KiWarrior

    KiWarrior Banned Banned

    You got your bb at 11, how many years had you been training?
     
  6. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    I have no problem with "Little Black Belts" as long as they have fulfilled the requirements of rank.
    Many schools handle promotion to black belt differently and black belts testing for younger than 16 may have different requirements. You need to find out through your organization or federation.

    One must remember that children are beginning martial art training at early ages wherein adults are beginning later on in life.... so the statistics show.
    So if a child begins training at 4 or 5, it is quite feasible that they can become black belts before they are 11.

    My daughter trained when I began my martial arts training ... not because I forced her into doing so. She hated dancing school and wanted to "fight" like mommy. She began at age 6 and got her black belt at age 12 (her current pic is in gallery)
    I say if they get their black belt and cease to train then that is where I find the "problem with young black belts".

    "The word that used to be associated with black belt was 'coveted' because not too many people could earn one. .. The phony black belt has been marketed so well that the general public doesn't know what's right anymore."

    Seems people place way too much emphasis on wearing of a black belt. ... is it not in fact the beginning and not the end of one's path into serious martial art training .... ??
     
  7. Terry Matthes

    Terry Matthes New Member

    Even if they haven't fufiled the requirments of the rank, what does it matter? Does it make some of you jealous that a child has a black belt and you don't or perhaps you have one as well and feel cheated?

    Everyone is acting as if a black belt is some kind of huge deal? It's just another belt in your ranking system. What if a black belt was Red and every time you went up a dan level your belt became a totally new color? The black belt wouldn't seem so special. Take away the belt and what have you got . . the person behind it.

    I think martial artist would view each other a lot more objectivley if belt color didn't come into play.

    Just my two cents and as always my PM box is open for flames :D
     
  8. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    Since Terry you were obviously directing this comment towards my post, let me explain what I mean't by "fulfilling requirements of rank".

    Clearly in order to have attained black belt rank would require the student to have learned all that is required as prescribed in their school's curriculum and be able to perform with some high degree of proficiency.
    What does it matter? It means they fail their black belt test and must retest I would imagine.
    What I feel "cheated" about is that certain people (those of course who don't know me personally) may ascertain that I "bought" my black belt and that I haven't "earned" it with years of sweat and dedication.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2004
  9. KiWarrior

    KiWarrior Banned Banned

    The lack of true objective standards in grading is imo a problem. Too often it is subjective. If someone is 12 with a bb, it is subjective.

    Many people view martial arts as a joke because of all the kiddie black belts. Where is the martial people? This isn't daycare or soccer practice.

    I personally feel there should be a seperation in rankings for children and adults, the rankings of each are not equal and shouldn't be viewed as such. At 16 let them start at a midlevel rank on the adult scale.
     
  10. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    I believe that no matter what school your at there should be age bracket curriculum.

    5-12
    13-16
    16 and older.

    I believe a Black Belt shouldnt be awarded to anyone under the age of 18.
     
  11. tkd_princess78

    tkd_princess78 New Member

    Thank you all for your replies it kinda got my question answered. I didnt want to start a riot lol. Its just a question that will be answered when its time for my brothers last test. "Im glad Im over 18 lol"
     
  12. Topher

    Topher allo!

    For those who think a black belt shouldn't be given to children. Lets say a child starts MA a 7 and they take 4 years to BB level, there now 11, are they suppost to wait 5-7 year just to get the next belt, because of there age? Or if there in a 'child program', would they then have to restart with adults.

    If there good enough to be awarded the coloured belt with the adults, then BB shouldn't be any diffrent.
     
  13. Terry Matthes

    Terry Matthes New Member

    Thanks for clearing that up kick chick. My question to you though is; "How come you are worried that other's will think you didn't earn your black belt through hard work?" What is the big deal of them knowing you have a black belt at all since the average person and even other MA's will have no idea what you did to achieve it anyway. I say leave everyone to their own devices and worry about yourself. A black belt isn't something to hold up on a pedestal and say "wow look what I did" more than any other belt color. If a black belt were truly the end of a curriculum, then why are there dan rankings afterwards? It's really a question here I was hoping someone could fill me in...?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2004
  14. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....



    So does the school you attend grade kids for black belt? I always felt that anyone can be a black belt and be honored to call themselves such. SOMEONE had to judge them worthy. If they are a subpar MAtist, it reflects upon the instructor, not necessarily the student. My schools students would rather quit than embarrass our master. We currently have 2 students who COULD test for BB, but feel they want to work on some things first. I"m sure every school has someone like this.
     
  15. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    I'm not for kiddy BBs at all. To me a BB should include an element of UNDERSTANDING beyond the confines of the syllabus. BBs aren't merely about technical knowledge, you require other factors including:
    - Contexts for the application of various techniques
    - The ability to adapt a technique to suit a pressured and dynamic situation
    - Awareness of the limitations of technique
    - Be trustable not to misuse your techniques
    - Worldliness of MA

    But by those standards, half the adult BBs shouldn't be BBs anyway....:rolleyes:
     
  16. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member


    Because isn't it the famous comeback line in all discussions that anyone can be a black belt... you can buy one in a store. That just infuriates me personally because I spent a good deal of time in my 30's (when I started) to obtain my bb by the time I reached 40.
    Never crossed my mind when I first started TKD that I would or even wanted to be a black belt ... I just enjoyed the classes and I seemed to be pretty good at it.

    Obviously you don't know me at all, and so you are excused in saying to me that I shouldn't blow my horn for being a BB. But I do have to tell you that at my age (when the majority of women my age surrender themselves to the plight of the American housewife.....) I am proud to have accomplished my degree of black belt. Sorry, it has made me and every person I come into contact a better person.... even here on MAP I hope ;)

    True, BB is not the end of curriculum.... from here on end of each dan level is where you reach the "meat" of the curriculum. Advanced kicks and hand techniques... advanced self defense applications, drill work and patterns which test you both physically & mentally ...
     
  17. Budd

    Budd Valued Member

    That's great for you, but I still think that anyone that trains just to get a black belt is missing the forest for the trees.
     
  18. StoneAngel

    StoneAngel Banned Banned

    Of course he won't bash it, it is his cash cow. He hands them the belt and asks if they want to supersize it for only 49 cents more. The depths of your beliefs and convictions are so shallow you couldn't drown an earth worm.
     
  19. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    ?
     
  20. surgingshark

    surgingshark Valued Member

    McDonald's reference.
     

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