Limb desruction

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Bruce Lee, Feb 28, 2003.

  1. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Is the guntang when u pak to the inside line and hit the inside of the attackers arm just above the elbow joint?

    If it is I always thought of this as a knife fighting technique that aims to cut the tendons on the attackers knife arm.
     
  2. stump

    stump Supersub

    That's one of many john. Many of the guntings are from knife fighting like the one you mentioned. Instead of the knife blade they use the knuckles to do damage. Personally speaking the more effective ones involve you intercepting a punch or kick with a hard part of your body....your knee or elbow for instance....as the ones mentioned above.

    It's a principle rather than a technique or group of techniques
     
  3. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Same as uk then! :D

    With the guntang you mentioned Mike, was the parry inside or outside and is it the parrying hand which also strikes with the elbow or the opposite arm.

    I suppose it doesn't matter how its done exactly with being a pronciple rather than a technique, just want to remember a a few good examples! :)
     
  4. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Thats interesting stump I didnt realise there were so many variations to the gunting.

    I'm still nursing a sore thumb from an elbow interception and that was over a month ago. Our instructor calls it a kali salute when you sort of bring your guard up with your elbow almost pointing forwards.

    So what is the definition of a gunting? (hmm, we call it Guntang or is this a different technique?).
     
  5. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Gunting means "Scissors" and describes the general motion.

    A more accurate term would be gununting which means "In a scissor motion"
     
  6. stump

    stump Supersub

    Gunting (or guinunting I believe is the correct word) meaning scissors or a scissoring action. Never heard the specific term guntang, but seeing as many of these concepts go on the phoenetic rather than the spelling it's not wise to get too hung up on specifics!

    The salute your talking about is also referred to as verticle elbow or some equally descriptive name :)

    Guntings can be done hand (or elbow) to any part of the opponents hand or arm provided the target is tender (inside the arm is a treat it can work wonders. Or directing the little bones of teh hand to teh big bone of the elbow!!!!! As Mike said earlier, think parrying your opponents punch into your elbow and hey presto one gunting!!!! :)

    It can be done against kicks too either attacking teh foot with the hands or again attacking the incoming kick with the knee or elbow.

    Admittedly some stretch the boundary or reality as to what would work...but they are a nice little tool to have in your arsenal. They work on a pychological level too....imagine every time you tried to hit someone you hurt yourself without them actually hitting you back....pour a lot of cold water on your confidence wouldn't it!!!!!!
     
  7. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    Quote "As Mike said earlier, think parrying your opponents punch into your elbow and hey presto one gunting!!!!"

    hehe, thats how I knackered my thumb. simple but damn sore when its done to you.

    once again cheers for the definition guys.
     
  8. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    Johndoch,

    In the Filipino MA there isn't really a list of 'knife techniques' and list of 'hand' techniques etc etc.

    The reason that principles and concepts are taught is that they are supposed to be interchangeable depending upon what situation that you find yourself in.

    Sword = stick=-knife=empty hand

    Well that's the theory of course :D

    Having said that the deployment of your tools is obviously different.

    So much of the empty hands stuff is the same as knife stuff especially. We train angles of attack and your responses will be similar if you have a knife or not. So using these guntings as an example if you have a blade you will try to cut, slash and stab but with no knife you can only strike (i.e. its a blunt object). The moves from knife and empty hand are also directly applicable to other weapons such as the palm stick (and hence things things more likely to be in your hand like a pen or keys).

    This is one reason that the FMAs are seen as being so pragmatic. The reason that weapons trainging starts from the get-go is that the concepts are the same and in fact training with weapons is thaught to enhance your empty hands fighiting.

    From what I've experienced and heard about the Japanese and Chinese systems they tend to add weapons in at higher level and you have to start to learn new stuff.

    "Guntang" sounds like it might be a bit 'street'... thinking Wu Tang etc... one think you find is that there is no consitency of terminology in the FMAs for sure. Elbow = siko, seko, secoh and thats just the romanisation of one Filipino dialect. Is a stick a olisi, a baston (I'm pretty certain its not an Escrima)?

    Yoda is the Gununting also the name of a sword that they use in Pekiti?

    Oh yeah and these aren't only done to limbs either... you can gunting the head and body too. There are loads... which is why its the concept that's important not the list of techniques. As demo my instructor put a bunch of basic panantukan moves into a list and then had Excel put them into various combinations against various attacks - the list was huge. I think 10 produced a list of over 200 combinations and then he got bored.
     
  9. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Yoda and dred have covered this well. But I want to extend what dred said a little.

    At a basic level, the stick can be thought of as a training tool for the sword. And the empty hand can be thought of as a training tool for knife.

    But, while using the training tool, you also learn to use it as a weapon.

    And, as you progress, you begin to realize that anything you pick up - whether short or long, bladed or blunt, heavy or light - you can use because the concepts and principles of movement and, specifically, movement with a weapon in-hand, have been ingrained into your body. Your body will reflexively find a comfortable way to hold the tool and feel the proper method of deployment. It'll happen in the 100th of a second after you pick up the item.

    A common statement made by FMA critics (usually people with no weapon training at all) is, "That's all really cool, but do you carry your stick around with you all the time? It's better to train empty hands because you always have your body."

    While there is something to this concept, it overlooks a whole lot of material.

    I actually had a guy say that very thing to me this weekend at the Arnold. He was a TKD instructor. His student is very interested in FMA. He got in and competed in our forms and fighting with no prior training or experience. He didn't win anything, but he earned a lot of respect from all of us because he got in there and did it with nothing but pure heart behind him. He's going to come and train with me once his leg heals (injured in the stickfight by a lot of Thai kicks).

    Anyway, he and his instructor were talking to me and I wasn't doing anything so I grabbed a stick and an uke and demonstrated a few things like disarms and locks. The instructor said, "That's really cool, but do you carry your sticks around all the time?" -- Note, he said it very politely and not in an insulting manner at all. I grabbed a half-full bottle of Pepsi and did the same material with it that I had done with the stick. Then I explained that the same movements and, more specifically, principles can be applied to anything. Then one of our guys tossed me his baseball cap and I proceeded to beat my uke with that, then locked him up with it, and took him down. I think the instructor was suitably impressed and he may even come train with me. And I didn't even get into the empty hand aspects :)

    Anyway, to bring this back on track, everything in the FMA (at least in my experience) is weapon oriented. It all comes from the weapon and goes back to the weapon. With blades, you're targets (whether on limbs or otherwise) are veins/arteries, tendons, ligaments, muscles. With blunt weapons, your targets are nerves, bones, and, of course, choice soft targets. But the motions and target areas remain largely the same.

    In the basic "gunting" example, for instance, with a blade, you're targeting the brachial artery that runs through the inside of the upper arm. With a blunt weapon (which includes your fist), you're targeting the brachial nerve which runs through the same area as the brachial artery. So the target area is the same. The movement is the same. Only the effect is different, based on the weapon.

    But every limb destruction I've ever seen is like this. The target area is the same. You use the same movements to achieve it. You let the weapon follow its nature when it connects to the target. And then you keep attacking because a limb destruction - short of hamstringing the guy, taking out his knee, or something else to affect mobility - will almost never finish a fight.

    Mike
     
  10. Solane

    Solane New Member

    Well the south of England must have a different understanding of the word to the north of England and Scotland, because if you say that up here you would find yourself flat on your back with a broken nose or arrested if you were silly enough to say it to a police officer.
    If you mean twit say twit and stay away from words that could land you in hot water.

    Bruce Lee I think Andy Murray was saying your sentence has bad grammar i.e. “kick is nuckles”
    Should have been “kick his knuckles”

    Later all play safe

    Solane
     
  11. Solane

    Solane New Member

    Doh Must remeber to read second page before posting :)
     
  12. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    Mike,

    Thanks for explaining what I meant to say. I was trying to explain this very same idea to someone I am mentoring at the moment just a couple of days ago and judging from her blank face I didn't get the point across. She was saying that stick class was too hard and that she might just do the empty hands - no no no no no... bad beginner...

    Sometimes I know what I mean but can't explain it or othertimes I over-explain... anyway this is where this forum is of great value!
     
  13. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Glad to be of help :)

    Mike
     
  14. Bruce Lee

    Bruce Lee New Member

    Is limb destruction part of Jeet Kune Do?
     
  15. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    Not just 'empty' but no cup at all..!
     
  16. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    You need to read through some of the JKD threads!

    JKD is more of a philosophy/process than a martial art, you have to train in it and decide yourself if you want limb destruction to be part of YOUR Jeet Kune Do.
     
  17. HKD

    HKD New Member

    i think death has slowed bruce lee's mind. it's a shame
    HKD
     

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