Limb desruction

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Bruce Lee, Feb 28, 2003.

  1. Bruce Lee

    Bruce Lee New Member

    I know what Limb destruction is but is there like techniques to it like more than 1 move for a limb destruction??:confused:
     
  2. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    In a word Yes. Limb destruction is a concept (you might have heard of "Defanging the Snake"?).

    There are many ways of achieving the result.

    For instance if you are talking weapons then one of your primary targets will be the hand of your opponent that is holding his weapon. Its an economical way of looking at things i.e. take away his ability to weild a weapon and you possibly take away some of the threat. Obviously you don't have to limit yourself to the hand either as essentially as long as the opponent is incapable of using his weapon you havbe achieved your result. So you can hit the shoulder, the bicpes, the triceps, nerve points, the funny bone (crazy bone in the US I think), the forearm, the wrist, the hand or indiviaul fingers.

    If you want an empty hands example... the easiest destruction that I can think of is to raise your elbow into an oncoming punch (called a Secoh, Seko, Siko in some FMAs). You may also wish to use your free hand to guide their punch onto you elbow in order to maximize the damage.

    Basically your elbow is likely to be harder than the guys fist, it will hopefully be really painful and discourage any further attack.

    Other common limb destructions that I've come across are called Guntings (which I believe means Scissor or scissor motion). This relates to the motion of your attack. For instance against a jab you may parry with your rear hand and simultaneously strike his biceps with an inward motion with your lead hand.

    But like I say these are specific techniques of which there are many but "limb destruction" is the concept.

    My understanding of this comes from a Filipino slant but I'm sure it appears in other arts also... in different guises.
     
  3. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    I also meant to say that the other economical thing about the limb destructions is that you only need a few basics put into various orders to give you a large repetoire.

    For example:

    The elbow that I mentioned earlier can be vertical up, horizontal, diagonal up, diagonal down. So thats 4 variations already. You can do it with the lead or rear arm. So that's 8.

    Add in a few guntings - inward, upward, inside, outside. Do these front and rear hand... now add these to the secohs in combination. Now target different parts of the anatomy...

    suddenly you've exceeded my mathematical ability:D
     
  4. Bruce Lee

    Bruce Lee New Member

    Are these Limb destructions or interceptions?
    A person trys to punch you,you kick is nuckles and it hurts.
    Heres another one:
    Your opponent kicks you, you block with your knee.

    I think the first one isn't a limb destruction.
    But thre second one could be I think....
    Can somebody answer that question for me?
    Thankyou.
     
  5. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    LMAO.

    You know Bruce, it's almost going to be a shame deleting all your posts :D
     
  6. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    They're both limb destructions ... and interceptions.

    Any time you attack the limb, it can be considered a "limb destruction." A lot of "interceptions" are also "limb destructions."

    But "interception" goes a lot deeper than that, too. Now, a guy punches, I punch. My punch, though, cuts the line of his punch, deflects his punch, and my fist hits him in the face (all with my single punch). Now, this isn't a "limb destruction" (though might be done that way, too) because I'm not "attacking" the limb. I'm attacking his face, the limb just happens to be in my way. But this is definitely an "interception."

    Mike
     
  7. Bruce Lee

    Bruce Lee New Member

    Andy Murray
    what do you mean by deleting all my post?Are you going to delete it.
     
  8. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Well start making some sense then!
     
  9. Bruce Lee

    Bruce Lee New Member

    To me it does make sense It is just the way I think.My mind is not like yours.
     
  10. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    ---- I think Andy figured that bit out for himself :D
     
  11. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    Bruce,

    I conclude that your avatar is in fact a real X-ray... I suspect that if you joined a real MA class your class mates could practice Campanology with your head at the same time as training.

    I realise that you don't think like the rest of us in that you are an individual but how do you continually manage to side-step what people offer you and completely miss the point?

    I'm not entirely sure what a troll is and I'm assuming that it doesn't relate to huge amounts of spikey coloured hair etc but you have to be kidding at the very least?
     
  12. stump

    stump Supersub

    Bruce....

    I'm going out on a limb here and hoping your not a twit.

    Have you ever tried to kick someones hand when it's travelling towards you very fast i.e. like a real punch..........I don't bleedin' think so. Don't believe me? Try it sometime. Most of what is taught as gunting is impractical but it teaches two important things. 1 is the principle of attacking the opponents weapons and the second related thing is the wide variety of ways this can be done. Most won't work......a few will and are very effective and the ones leviathon described are about the best of them.

    You an also use knees adn elbows to destroy or more realistically damage legs and feet when defending against a kick
     
  13. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    How practical is limb destruction. I know the theory of how it works etc. But is it worth doing it in a fight. I wouldn't waste time risking trying to take an arm out, I can imagine it easily getting messy and not working to any great effect.

    Taking a leg out would be much more effective with the Thai style kicks to back of knee/calf/ankle. Other than that I'd stick with the regualr targets.

    aaahhhh stump said a naughty word! ;)
    Everybody only thought it! :D
     
  14. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Actually, it should be pointed out (lest anyone get the wrong idea) that "twit" is the UK equivalent of "twit" in America. In America, "twit" has a MUCH different meaning. I've recently learned this tidbit on another UK heavy forum I'm on.

    Now, on to limb destruction, I think limb destruction is very valuable. But it should never be the goal. The limbs are "targets of opportunity." It's a bomber's escort strafing a troop transport while escorting the bombers to a munitions depot.

    The best explanation of limb destruction I've ever heard came from a man named Dr. Andre KnutsGraichen of Pentjak Silat USA. He said that each of us has a "personal space." This space as two aspects. One is the non-attacking aspect which is our awareness and positioning.

    The other is the attacking aspect. This aspect extends roughly a foot from your body all the way around (though the precise distance will vary from person to person). This space is where you have the most access to leverage and are able to bring the bulk of your large muscle groups into action. When you extend past this zone (and the zone is a little longer for legs than for hands), your strength/leverage starts to decline.

    So, take this concept and imagine a box surrounding you about a foot out. Now, if you extend past that box, you run the risk of leaving yourself vulnerable and the possible beneifts of your actions will decline the further you extend past that box. So, you attack anything that enters your box. With this mindset, anytime the person attacks you, he's handing you a gift. He's putting something into your box that you can attack.

    So, a guy punches, I attack his fist/arm because it's in my box. That's not a fight finisher. But as I attack it, I also close the distance. Now his head is in my box. Now his head is a good target.

    What training this way gives you is the mindset that every single time you touch him, the guy should feel pain. Every time you parry, the guy should feel pain.

    Every art that I've been exposed to or trained in has had this philosophy (though it's not always understood as such).

    Take Karate, for instance. In the Karate that I trained, we had a saying that "every block is an attack; every attack is a block." This is an expression of the "limb destruction" philosophy.

    Mike
     
  15. stump

    stump Supersub

    <<<aaahhhh stump said a naughty word!>>>

    What??? Bleedin'????? :)

    I meant it in the UK sense...honest guv ;) I could have said see you next tuesday, but I'd never do that. :D

    I agree that many limb deestruction guntings are of only theoretical use...there's no way you're going to work some of them....most people (ok...me) won't have the reflexes to pull them off. But the ones where you allow the punch or kick to find your elbow??? Very usable and very efficiant. Think of taking shots on your forearms when you're holding a traditional high handed thai guard and you're got what I mean. The same can be done using knees into kicks....when done right it hurts like hell!!!
     
  16. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    These destructions become even more reliable when you think of parrying the attack into your elbow/knee (which actually makes it a "gunting" in the strictest since of the word).

    A lot of people poo-poo this technique because they think we're trying to "aim our elbow at the oncoming fist." No way. When I explain it this way:

    Me: "Can you parry a punch?"
    Them: "Yes."
    Me: "Can you slap your own elbow?"
    Them: "Yes."
    Me: "OK. So parry their fist, then slap your elbow. Voila, you've just done an elbow gunting to their fist."

    I love the look on their faces after that :)

    Mike
     
  17. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I'm curious what it means in America? I've lost interest in the limb destruction thing.

    But, limb destruction has never been a big part of my training apart from the thai style kicks. I can see its benefits with Mike's descriptions. If your out of range to hurt the body, hurt their limbs instead :)

    I've trained in various styles of Kung Fu, Hsing I will attack limbs then body as you smash into them, whereas wing chun will aim to deflect limbs with little impact going straight for a body shot. There's arguments for both, I dunno. Its probably a good tool to have, but I don't think it should be something you look for, just take when you get the oportunity.
     
  18. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Not for polite company. But, in very PC terms, it's a derogatory term for a woman's genetalia.

    Mike
     
  19. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    Hey then it means the same in the UK too! Its one of those words that we tend to use tonally. If you're calling one of your mates a twit then it tends to be slightly more jovial...


    ...but then a twit is a twit is a twit. :D

    We have a deeply complex vocabulary of profanity in the UK which is added by all the lovely regional variations we have. For instance a few of my Scottish relatives (think aunties and grannies) have been know to make me blush in general conversation :eek:

    By the way Mike nice explantion. As a few of you have pointed out limb destructions or specific limb destructions are weapons of opportunity rather than the final goal. You can train them but they won't be useful in every situation. Like everything else they're just tools not the holy grail of MAs. Recently I've been putting these to use in groundwork - some are very effective as your opponent can't move away quite so quickly.

    My intro wass through the empty hands FMA which my instructor calls Panantukan (I don't mean he coined the phrase but this reflects his own lineage). There's a lot of debate as to whether this is an art in itself or just a name made up by money hungry Filipino masters wanting to attract rich western clients. Ohters believe it is a phrase that westerners inflicted on themselves as we love to classify everything down to the n'th degree. Whatever it is I really enjoy learning it as it has great concepts.

    In terms of sparring the only ones I've used against the arms successfully are the elbows to the fist, elbows to the arms and the horizontal gunting (although this loses alot of its potential due to the gloves). The vertical gunting used with an outside slip also works but its hard to maintain the connection with a resisting opponent... but I don't want to start the live training debate again... well maybe!

    As for legs then of course the Thai style crush is awesome but then we all knew that. I've also managed to pull of a few elbows to legs especially when combined with underhooking an incoming kick (but you have ot be careful or you end up with no training partners or getting your head kicked in for irritating the wrong guy).

    You see some boxers using techniques that could be classified as limb destructions also... the name of a good example has slipped my mind for the time being... anyway you see some boxers hitting their opponent's biceps, triceps and shoulders when they're in close. It weakens the arm of course and therefore follows the limb destruction principle but if you walked in to a boxing gym and asked what limb destructions they practiced I'm pretty certain you see a lot of blank looks.

    So Stump you're based in Brighton huh? I studied at Sussex Uni oa few years ago and still consider Brighton my spiritual home... as with most people in London I plan to move back one day! Where and what do you train?
     
  20. stump

    stump Supersub

    And a very "spirits" based home it can be!!!!!!! I've been living here for almot 18 months now and still loving it.

    I train at Sussex Uni with the Shotokan club....they do Arnis as well...along with our esteemed Supermoderator....eh hi Mel !!!!

    Aswell as that I do FMA, Lau Gar, and Vale Tudo in Worthing.... and Kickboxing whenever I can fit it in. Who do you train Stix with?
     

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