OK. I just started my Tai chi training. I have only had two sessions with my instructor, so far he has me doing: Standing meditation (from a normal upright stance, like at the end of preparation in the form) I do that about five minutes right now. Standing in play the guitar for about two minutes. The first two steps in the form (preparation, catch the birds tail) But when I do NORMAL standing meditation, just basically standing up, feet shoulder with apart, hands just in front of my waist, my legs start shaking. I am NOT locking my knees. In play the guitar the leg I have my weight on shakes tremendously but thats to be expected when I'm not used to it yet. However just normal standing meditation and my legs will start to shake after only about 30 seconds to a minute. Yesterday my instructor briefly mentioned that I was shaking a bit much for that, that it indicates something might be wrong. I asked if the legs could just be tired from doing play the guitar. He said "Could be." And just seemed to be thinking. But he is right. Today during my self practice at home I did standing meditation BEFORE doing play the guitar and my legs still shake. What could the problem be? Could it be nutritional? Lack of potassium maybe?
1) Is your tailbone tucked in? 2) Are your thighs tensed? (consciously or unconciously?) 3) Are you breathing? 4) Are your knees bowing out to the sides, or inside? 5) Where abouts in your feet is your weight? 6) What is your mind doing? 7) Is your head raised up? 8) Is your chin tucked in? It could be that you just need to get used to the practice, but check back on these points.
Everyone shakes to some degree when they begin standing QiGong, so please don't worry too much about it. Your teacher should have been more supportive and helpful, imo. It is nothing to do with nutrition. When you align the body in this way (which is totally different to usual posture) it is hard work, especially on the legs. The important thing is not to obsess (sp) about the shaking. 2 things you could try.... Firstly, stop your standing, shake out and then resume standing. Secondly, 'tell it to stop' this does work!! There are other things you can do, you haven't enough posts for me to pm you...if your email is enabled by yourself via MAP, I could write to you and explain if you are interested.??? edit I just checked your profile and you haven't allowed for emails to be sent. Re: the tailbone. The phrase which is often used by some teachers and in books 'tuck the tailbone in' is not very helpful and can make people create problems for themselves by overdoing it and this causes leaning back. Which creates more problems and so on.... The best description is to relax the hips and flatten the base of the spine. Your teacher should be able to help you with this. It definately is not a big physical 'tucking under'. I've been doing this stuff for 12+ years. Recently I took my first long break from daily standing, and guess what....when I resumed standing practice, my legs shook like a newbie.:hat: So, relax, breathe into the posture and know that it is the same for everyone in the beginning. Good luck, Carys.
Is the only difference in the two standings you're doing the arm position?When you say hands in front of the waist I'm thinking the palms are facing up or down,or w them facing towards or away from you, w/the fingertips basically pointing towards the fingertips on the other hand.Correct? You may be doing something in your body to offset this difference in arm positioning,resulting in some slight misalignment.Try standing in each posture, checking all the things Carys and Bailu mentioned,see if you feel a difference anywhere.
I have to say, I have seen some pretty bad shaking (Both personally and from class mates) and agree with Carys, your instructor should know what is going on. This is fairly typical, usually due to muscle strain and this is even more supported by the fact you are a beginner. This is usually because you are using muscles you are not used and using more the origin and insertion points of muscles rather than the core muscle itself. This is one of the ways IMA builds up power is by working more on the attachment points of the muslces and getting them to work harmoniously rather than "bulk muscle" groups (Calfs etc.) The main nutrition component would be potassium (as that is the most common sign of potassium deficiency). So try eating a bannanna a day and see if that helps, but to me it sounds like you are describing "growing pains" and I am interested in your response to what BT wrote. All the best, TQ
Shaking is normal, of course,even when an experienced person goes far enough past their comfort zone.But as the shaking occurs in one post training,and not the other, seems potassium is a moot point in this instance. "Standing meditation (from a normal upright stance, like at the end of preparation in the form)....NORMAL standing meditation, just basically standing up, feet shoulder with apart...." Sound like the body position is the same,only the position of the arms are different,need apprentice to clarify.Perhaps if not "sitting" a bit in the "normal" (?) position something is contracting more than it should.Odd if that's the case,but we're all odd. belated welcome to MAP to the OP
After re-reading it, I am reading it as the OPs legs shake in both instances. Which may indicate such and in "Play Guitar" the OPs leg that supports the weight there also shakes. Since it is -both- legs I would assume if we are talking nutrition that could be a potassium deficiency. Also, after re-reading the OP, I am reading it as though the legs shake -worse- once they start "Play guitar" and I am reading it as that is their 2nd time of doing standing. "Play Guitar" is a difficult stance to hold for very long no matter your ability lvl b/c it is relying on one leg. So if the muscles are already extremely fatigued from the first standing posture, it makes sense the 2nd one would be the "worse" of the two.
Thank you, everyone, for your quick replies. I am sorry that I did not respond sooner, I will be more deligent in the future. First let me say I am so glad to see so many serious people on here! I have been in other styles and other martial arts forums where people were answering who were clearly unknowledgeable and its a sigh of relief to see some of the things you are saying reflect those I am being told by my teacher. Where do I begin? Well, as far as my teacher being supportive, he has been very supportive. I did not mean to make him look bad. I wrote him an email about this the same hour I wrote to the forum. He replied back and told me that he beleives that my postural muscles are not strong enough, and that time would tell. (I have only done this with him twice now). He said he meant it could be a form problem not likely a health one. The tail tucking is a confusing issue, as is sinking. The entire experince is like walking all over again. But it isn't a two year style so I'll be patient with myself. I am certain the exhaustion from play the guitar added to the shaking that day. But none the less, when I practiced alone after a rest period, the shaking persisted even though I did the standing meditation BEFORE play the guitar. I was asked to be more specific about the stance of the standing meditation. I assume most yang stlye tai-chi forms have the same or very similar preperation step at the begining of the form? Where the arms come up softly, back in to the shoulde3r, and then down again? The standing meditation is with palms facing towards me, as if I had just finished the preperation step and was about to shift the weight to go into my form. I think the best thing for me to do is take everyones advice. The explination of tailbone tucking makes sense, I'll adjust for that. I'll also see if it resides with pracitce. And I could always use some more potassium. :hat:
Just to clarify for my thick head-Ok,so you're only talking about one position in your standing?(Besides Play Guitar). I read one position you stood for five minutes,the other you shook very soon after starting.Tq read otherwise. Your last post leads me to believe Tq was correct.One,not two double leg postures.
lol, I think so? It was: 1. Play the guitar with weight on the left leg 2 minutes 2. Play the guitar with weight on the right leg 2 minutes 3. preperation stance (weight equally distributed on both legs, paralell, feet shoulder width apart) 5 minutes.
Cool, Concise and clear Alright, so as I read your first post your "worst" shaking is in the first 2-2 minute standing postures? If that is the case, this to me is more than normal (if that is even possible lol, I think I mean it is almost a given) b/c as I pointed out before, we constantly use the "Bulk" muscles and if you are properly aligned you work on "smaller" finer muscle groups. So this is just showing fatigue and is more of a "warm up" issue than anything else. I would frequently exp. shaking the first 5-10 mins until I learned the correct postural alignment and relaxation level. So I would not worry so much. Potassium would more than likely only come into play, if you exp. the shaking throughout other day to day activities (muscle twitches, the need to move the hands or legs repetitively etc.) are all signs of possible low potassium. However, if you are only exp. this during your practice, I would bet it is due to: 1) Weak muscle groups 2) Learning proper postural alignment (for the standing) 3) Lack of relaxation The weak muscle groups will come with time. Talk to your teacher about proper postural alignment or as has been pointed out in this thread. Try a -slight- tailbone tuck, I have found through personal exp. and by teaching, that people tend to overdo it. It should be very subtle, usually just enough to feel a slight expansion in the coccyx and sacrum area (though the sacrum does not really "move") this allows the hips to sit and align better at the femoral joint. Then comes the factor of knees, if the knees are bent too far you will through off the femoral joint, coccyx alignment too. Also, look at the width of your stances, as this can affect alignment. So just practice Remember to be "Song" not "Reclining chair relaxed" as there is a difference. Hope it all helps!
If your training is any good, the shaking NEVER goes away. Nor does the pain. It's called "eating bitter". Get some.
That's completely wrong, and actually, daft. Shaking just comes, usually, from muscles learning how to relax - muscles that you don't need tense up, and then they let go a little, then they tense up again. It just takes a bit of time to let the body relax in to it. The shaking will go, and so will the pain - and just QJC saying that it never does tells me that he has almost no experience with standing. Deliberately standing until you shake is stupid, and specifically called stupid and wrong practice by specialists in standing posture, like Yao Cheng Rong and Wang Xiang Zhai. Anyone who thinks that standing is about torturing the body just so they can go on the internet and pretend to have "eaten bitter" is way, way,. way off understanding what standing meditation is for or about. After relaxation, you search for "mojin" - resistance, and eventualy development of hunyuanli. Or, just relaxation. You might experience some shaking as you hold the posture to get a little better in terms of endurance - but anythign after that, let it go. It's the mo jin and relaxation you want.
FQ, you throw out buzzwords like their going out of style. I've seen your posting history here. You are much less experienced that you attempt to come off as. You even admit to it here and there. But back to the subject: If even Chen Xiaowang shakes, which he does sometimes, what then? Sometimes I stand for 20 minutes, sometimes an hour or longer. Sometimes I shake soonner than later, sometimes there's some pain. And it has been that way for the last 12 years of my practice..... That's not experience? You talk and criticize alot, without stating your own qualifications. It is entertaining, if not a bit sad.
I also have been practicing standing for a while. Whilst I agree that shaking at some point is normal (if one is standing for 15 + minutes because of the daily differences in our personal health and fitness,) the notion that pain is normal is (imo) wrong. When first starting standing, there is a lot of shaking, swaying, burning of muscle groups (pain). However, within a fairly short period of time, with correct posture and a good teacher, there should be no pain whatsoever With experience, shaking and swaying is controlled. Pain is a sign that something is wrong....usually posture. To continue standing with pain is not to be recommended. (In this instance I am differentiating between pain and muscles 'burning'.)
OK, should clarify- pain as in a spot in your knee burning like hell from incorrect alignment is bad. But the pain of general fatigue and lactic acid buildup in the muscles is normal.
Well no - Quai said that pain will always bee there if you're doing it right - it won't - unless you over do it. I'm reminded of TabbyCat's Yiquan blog where he reported that someone from another part of China came to Yao Cheng Guang's class and said that his teacher made him do three hours non stop standing, and Yao Cheng Guang just said "stupid!". The point of standing is not pain, nor is it right to always do more and more, to always be in pain. In fact, such a philosophy is "stupid!"
If you are training hard, you will always have some pain, be it from fatigue, making a mistake, or taking damage from other players. Your way of reading into things guarantees that you always have lots and lot to say, as if it qualified you somehow. I'm not saying you're not, but you are horribly pretentious. Tell me where I said pain was a goal.
