Legal issues w/carrying a knife

I'm sure that someone here has had this problem before... advice?

First, a little backstory: I recently started training Kali, and after about 4 months I feel more comfortable than ever with a knife. However, even before I started training I carried a knife. For years it was a Spyderco Military, and more recently an Emmerson Commander. Recently, however, I moved to New York City, where the penalties for carrying a concealed weapon are much more severe than other places.

So, my question: does anyone here consider the legal ramifications of carrying a knife? I was speaking with my Kru and with some NYPD officers in my class and they said the following:

-Generally, whoever does the most damage in a fight will become the target of any investigation. So, if I ever pulled a 4" knife and used it as per my Kali training, I would be in hot water to say the least.

-Juries generally hate knives. Carrying a knife is associated with criminal behavior, and in some cases people on a jury will give more sympathy to someone who carries a gun in self defense that a person who carries a knife.

-In NYC, carrying any knife at all, especially a big drop-knife like my Emmerson, can get you arrested. Not good for the career-conscious professional's resume.

In any case, I'm just concerned about this now more than ever. Can anyone chime in?

 

Personaly, I don't think I need to carry a knife enough to warrant the legal risk of carrying a knife or the extra penalties involved in using it.

 

Unless you are carring a knife for either work, utility or training purposes then I would advise you leave it at home. did you know you can be arrested for carrying a comb here in the UK if your intent is to use it as a weapon be it for criminal or self defence purposes.

At the end of the day, If you carry a knife for other reason than work, utility or training purposes then I am affraid you intend to use it, that is how the law will see it.

Is it worth the risk.

Best regards

Pat

 

In Pennsylvania, USA, certain weapons, such as butterfly knives, are totally legal. But I still, as an attorney, do not recommend that people carry them because most people do not understand (a) the subtle concept that is self-defense, and (b) most of the people who carry them don't know how to use them and would probably get themselves killed anyway.

You are right that if you are being attacked, and you pull a knife, you've just made things a lot worse. For yourself (as you've guessed).

Pat is right, it's just not worth the risk. Heck, I even leave my weapons at the school so I don't have to carry them with me.

 

@Pat

Thanks! I had hoped you would chime in! I figured you would have had to deal with this as a Kali instructor.

When I did carry my knife it was actually for work/utility. I used it constantly because over the years I worked as a skilled tradesman, including a window washer and a chimney sweep. However, I would be lying if I said that I didn't think the knife was cool, or that I did carry it under the (misguided) premise of self-defense.

As of right now, I work in a government office, so I can't bring my knife with me to/from work. It is a moot point however- I stopped carrying it when I moved to the city; in rural VT carrying carrying a knife is common, but in NYC it is a great way to get bad attention.

@BaiKai

Thanks! I had hoped you would chime in too! I figured that you, qua lawyer, would have given this some thought too.

Do you have any idea about the validity of what was said about guns? It is logically silly, but I empathize with the rationale- the stereotype is that people who carry knives are criminals who steal wallets while upstanding citizens purchase a gun or pepper spray for defense.

It's just a mess all around.

 

Hi, I think you're wrong about carry laws in NYC. I go up there frequently and carry folders. If I remember correctly the law is: a folder with a blade no longer than 4" not carried in an exposed or menacing manner, being acceptable. Debate is often about the pocket clip, does that qualify as concealed or exposed?

 

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

Article. VI.
Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.


Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

 

I currently live in Nyack NY just north of NYC but have lived in NYC many years and am there at least 2x a week. Here is a rule of thumb, don't carry a knife. NYPD is not knife friendly and the 2nd amendment has no bearing NYC. You can try it and you won't get far. Dont think about a gun either.

I highly recommend you carry a stick or a cane. The stick used in stick ball is perfect and can buy one in a sporting good store.

 

1. The right to keep and bear arms is quite limited when it comes to prasctical self-defense applications. Yeah, you can have a gun. Whoopie. If you use it on just anyone, you go to jail. The use of Lethal Force is heavily regulated in the states, and pulling a gun without just cause tends to violate those laws.

2. Perception: I don't think that guns are necessarily conveying the image of the hapless citizen looking to protect themselves anymore. The perception, for the most part, is that you are a rabid hunter and outdoorsman, (good), crazy militiaman (not so good), or common thug (really not good).

I think with all the crazy stuff going on in the world, it seems to be ok to maybe have a small gun you keep at home, but most people are no longer impressed by the gunrack in the pickup truck, y'know what I mean?

 

Well, that may (or may not) be the letter of the law, but the spirit of it is what I said above- namely, any knife can get you arrested. The 4" rule is the common rule that is mentioned, but when I was speaking with the officers in my class they said explicitly that any knife can be a collar (ie- an arrest), even a small swiss army knife. Will they arrest you for walking around with a small utility knife? Probably not. However, the point is that they can, whether or not the charge actually sticks. The exception to this is a 'drop knife', namely one that opens if the officer lets gravity pull it down. That is always an arrest.

I guess my point is similar to what was said already- the NYPD is not knife friendly. Cops in New York can bust your chops if they want to, and I don't want them to.

@2nd amendment

As BaiKai said, the 2nd amendment is not a viable excuse to carry a concealed knife. Period.

@BaiKai

The gunrack thing still happens in VT, but usually just for hunting purposes . Does it make sense to be studying a knife art if I can't carry a knife? I know that I will learn defense and many other things... but still seems a little out of whack.

 

Meh, being able to disarm is never a bad thing, and don't you guys play with sticks, too? That's also helpful.

Besides, weapons are a great way to increase your ability to fight open-handed as well.

 

True, true, and true. Actually, I have only ever done one knife class, in comparison to my many stick classes. Actually, we are just starting sparring now, so I'm pretty well along in sticks.

I guess I don't have anything else to say that hasn't already been said. Studying kali is fun, and that is the real reason I like it. I guess I simply find it ironic that I am simultaneously more qualified and less likely than ever to use a knife that I have carried for years.

Edit- Isn't is also ironic that the more qualified MAists here (ie: Pat) endorse not carrying a knife?

 

Because they understand both the legal ramifications as well as the ramifications on how the fight will go if you decide to bring a knife to a fistfight. It's called "reality", and thankfully many of us accept that!

 

IN NYC you must realize the NYPD are on Super Dooper Hyper Orange/Red Alert. Anyone entering the subway is now subject to search and the subway is the main transportation in NYC. For most people who reside here, a car is way too expensive.

You don't need a knife in NYC.

 

Although I carry a small folding knife, I highly doubt I would ever pull it in a real fight.

Over here, the knife I carry is legal but in a city environment where you visit a lot of different establishments it simply isn't practical due to mandatory bodysearches at those places.

Also, the police do sweeps in the cities on certain days... mostly weekends and events. So, in effect you're summoned to empty your pockets and hand over any weaponry you might posess. But this policy is only enforced in major cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam and so on.

 

Yeah that constitution thing and the second amendment are old hat that isnt relevant in todays world...im sure there is a shortage of toilet paper in the disaster zones about now...we should just send it to them so its useful for something...

"If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees."
-- President Bill Clinton, August 12, 1993

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans . . . ."
-- William J. Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993

"We must be able to arrest people before they commit crimes. By registering guns and knowing who has them we can do that. If they have guns they are pretty likely to commit a crime."
-- Vermont State Senator Mary Ann Carlson

"I am one who believes that as a first step, the United States should move expeditiously to disarm the civilian population, other than police and security officers, of all handguns, pistols, and revolvers...No one should have the right to anonymous ownership or use of a gun."
-- Professor Dean Morris, Director of Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, stated to the U.S. Congress

"We're bending the law as far as we can to ban an entirely new class of guns."
-- Rahm Emmanuel, senior advisor to Bill Clinton

"All military type firearms are to be handed in immediately ... The SS, SA and Stahlhelm give every respectable German man the opportunity of campaigning with them. Therefore anyone who does not belong to one of the above named organizations and who unjustifiably nevertheless keeps his weapon ... must be regarded as an enemy of the national government."
-- SA Oberfuhrer of Bad Tolz, March, 1933.

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."
-- Heinrich Himmler

"Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
-- HCI President Sarah Brady to Senator Howard Metzenbaum, The National Educator, January 1994

"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal."
-- U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, December 1993

 

NYC Knife carry law summary

Date updated: Aug 25, 2005 @ 8:41 pm

New York City Law
Chap. 1 Public Safety 10-133

Historical Note

Formerly 436-5.1

10-133 Possession of knives or instruments.

A. Legislative findings. It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using such knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to
(1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor;
(2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law;
(3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner
(4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or
(5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or
(b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or
(c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or
(d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.

E. Violation of this section shall be an offense punishable by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars or by imprisonment not exceeding fifteen days or by both such fine.

Looks like that $300 and/orr 15 days in jail is the max fine for carrying.

http://www.packing.org/state/new_york_city/#stateknifecarry_law

Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

Also consider this:

Some of the trade mags I get that are wepaons-related have a lot of no-ship orders when it comes to NY, MA, and CA. You all have some of the strictest weapons laws around, as seen from the above post!

So, not only can you get yourself killed, but you can be arrested.

And one thing I want people to think long and hard about: It's easy to talk trash on an internet forum, but how many of you have ever stabbed and killed someone? We don't exactly train students, and Pat or one of the other knife specialists can correct me if I'm wrong, to stab each other on a regular basis. Simulations, sure. Actual stabbing? Well, that's kinda like the whole "I can kill you with a pressure point tap" argument. Unless you've practiced it, you ain't gonna do it under pressure.

One of the things people get told to do when they are buying a gun is to think long and hard about whether or not they could shoot and kill someone, and the same goes for knives, IMO. If you draw a weapon on someone, you have to be prepared to use it, otherwise you're the one who's gonna get killed. They aren't for show, and they aren't to "scare people" away. You either draw it with the intent to use, or leave the thing at home.

Just something else to think about.

 

BaiKaiGuy,

As a US attorney, did you have to take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States?

 

1. If you knew anything about me, you'd know I am not a US Attorney, I do not work for the federal governement.

2. The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution is irrelevant to a discussion about knives as it only applies to guns, which is tangential to this discussion about sharp, pointy objects.

3. Attack my job at your own peril. I will see to it personally you get binned. I suggest you read a few other threads; baiting someone based on their profession is a violation of the TOS. Unless you wanna get sin binned or banned, back off. NOW.