If your opponent has you in guard, could you use leg and ankle locks to sub your opponent and so avoid the need to passs guard? In other words, does presenting your legs as in guard offer your opponent the opportunity to leg/ankle lock you? I realise that rules often ban leg/ankle locks but assujming the rules did not apply (e.g. in a self-defence situation). Thank you in advance.
Seen a few sweet ankle locks when a person is put in closed guard. Maybe that is one reason why they don't let people do it before a certain level as the person may not be skilled enough to see what they have let themselves in for. Just my VERY limited experience!! FWIW LFD
Yes, But in doing so people neglect to learn guard passing, people tend to tap early to leg locks to avoid injury, if you mess up the leg lock your on bottom, in sd people with broken legs are still quite punchy.
have you ever herd that old bruce lee quote about biting, how when its necessary and the opportunity presents its self you should have at it but if you go into a fight planning to bite someone you'll probably lose your teeth. Iv always thought that was a good analogy for how some people get with leg locking. Iv seen people falling into your train of thought and come to rely on them to much, they end up stunting there progress as grappler's and end up with a weaker game compared to people who have been training just as long. Leg locks are not a magic key they are like anything in fighting a tool that is used best with the correct timing. Are there opportunity's to leg lock when someone pulls guard yes, does this mean you should negate guard passing skills no. Often people with proper leg lock credentials are the best guard passers around. Learning leg locks is something more people should do but not at the expense of anything else.
I can't see it fusen SOME people do (you could even maybe say most), pretty much the same point I made but I think its important to make it clear leg locks are still important, often overlooked and worthy of attention, in my opinion anyway.
IME the passer is at greater risk for leglocks than the passee. That's less because leglocks are actually more dangerous for the passer and more because many people learn to pass guard in relative isolation from competent leglocking and therefore feed leglocks like crazy when they pass. And no, someone who has a solid guard-bottom game is going to be very difficult to leglock if the person has much experience with leglocks. You can't substitute leglocks for a passing game. On the other hand, if you remove or nerf leglocks you'll only have half a passing game. I'd say if you've got people using leglocks as a gimmick to avoid passing guard, then obviously they're in a group of people where that is a successful strategy. Remove leglocks as a blind spot in that group's strategy and practice and that won't be the case anymore. And Fusen, maybe they're punchy, but they're not very base-y or chase-y. I'll take an attacker with a jacked up leg over a jacked up arm as I can just sweep and wander off with relative impunity. And if you mess up any jointlock except for ude garami, you're on the bottom. Except the leglock (short of kneebars) actually puts you in a leg ride if you fail, which is about as neutral as half guard without the issue of one guy actually being under the other. Whoever passes the leg-ride actually ends up on top, just like guard. (now I admit, some leg-rides permit the guy on the recieving end to stand up in it but that's toehold city for one and doesn't do anything to hinder the leg ride for two)
Leg lock entries from bottom are quite good actually. For the OP since your talking about SD, For me, its all about top game, being able to disenguage and blood chokes for me. If your on bottom guard (my fav position) then its all about the sweep and tge standup with submissions coming behind that, and again for SD focusing on blood chokes.
oops Yep, got myself confused (terminology wise) and put my foot somewhere in it. You are of course correct- best from open guard/back mount(if they cross their ankles)( and a bunch of other places that I have missed :' ) if I understand things correctly. Thanks for the correction :' D LFD
from a pure self defence point of view, falling to your back from a kneeling position might not be the best thing to do, simply pounding his face with your fist might be the best choice and is probably the best way to open the guard going For self defence guard pass to knee on stomach might be a an even better choice, more mobility and choice from there leglocks as mentioned are a good weapon to have in your tool box but you have to remember two things with leg locks 1)when you take a leg lock you normally offer your opponent a leglock opportunity 2) they are as mentioned best used as part of a good grappling game and a good guard passing game not a replacement for said.
Knee on belly with a nearside arm giftwrap, or a skull ride with an arm control are my personal SD faves, and by that i mean during rolling I give myself over 9000 points when I get them.
is skull ride really knee on belly but with the knee on the face? i remember matt thornton teaching this to us years ago, nasty lol
More like knee into upper chest and shin accross neck and turning the chin away for better control. Wierdly at the Mat thornton seminar this year he was talking about how the name makes people do the position badly!
Strictly speaking, there are a number of guard positions where the bottom man is vulnerable to leg locks, mostly a sloppy open guard, but I've found the scissors/knee shield guard (if the top knee is low) as well as half guard open up a lot of opportunies. I've heard that the De La Riva guard is a leglocker's heaven, but none of my training partners play it enough for me to know. But as others have said, it's not a substitute for having a good passing game. Among my training partners, I'm known for my leg locks, and this has actually probably made it easier for me to pass some of their guards, because they're so concerned about getting caught with a sub that they either don't see the pass coming, or sometimes just outright give up position so they don't get caught. So the two games compliment each other very well. Imagine if you ONLY went for subs from guard, or ONLY sweeps- you'd "level up" your sub or sweep game, but by mixing them up, you stand a better chance of accomplishing both. Same deal. For SD, I can't imagine going for a leg lock while on top of someone, in their guard. Or on top of someone in general. In SD, your first priority is to escape. If you can create enough space to set up a leg control position, you can create enough space to get up and leave. And I don't think it's very likely that your opponent in a self-defense situation is going to have some sick guard game that you're going to have to worry about- if you end up there, posture up, pop him in the face until he's no longer threatening, then leave. Leg locks from the bottom, on the other hand, are something I can definitely see having a place in SD. If you end up on the bottom, and your best chance of escape is to rip the guy's leg off, do it. Incidentally, outside of IBJJF-style rule sets, you should not be falling to your back for a leg lock. Falling to your side while throwing your leg over in the "knee reap" position offers a lot of control. Also, several leg lock positions allow you to hide up your feet- see Reilly Bodycomb's "Sambo Leg Locks for MMA" DVD's for what I feel is the best material on the market for optimum leg locks. Scott Sonnon and Stephen Kesting also have good leglock material. I'd assume Ryan Hall's 50/50 guard DVD is probably also helpful here, but I've never seen it.
true and i should have been more specific sorry lol But either way falling to your side still isnt a good idea from a self defence point of view: no point in giving up mobility and the ability to standup, and whilst on paper and in those dvds a lot of the positions seem to allow you to hide your feet and thus avoid counter locks this never seems to be the case in MMA or sub grappling when its actually going live. Look at the way dean lister has finished at least 2 of his last view matches in ADCC for example: guys went for heel hooks on him and he simply beat them by replying with a reverse heel hook, (same seems to happen to a number of guys in the ufc recently) if guys at the top cant avoid their own legs being attacked im kind of wary of it myself
You don't think that maybe their mistake was trying to leglock a better leglocker? I'm not saying there isn't risk involved, but it's relative risk. Leglocks are a skill that most grapplers and MMA fighters haven't developed to their potential, either due to time constraints, stylistic preferrences, or ignorant prejudice. Trying to leg-grapple a guy like Dean Lister, with a Sambo background among other things, is like trying to clinch with a Judoka or trade punches with a boxer. There's a big risk that, unless you've spent time training their strength, you're going to be under-developed in that area. And honestly, unless you're in a sloppy 50/50, your risk of being counter-locked, at least by the "major" holds, is pretty slim. Although if your opponent tries some eccentric Erik Paulson stuff (not a jab at the guy, should have mentioned him earlier in fact, but some of the stuff he demos is much lower-percentage than the guys I listed), you've decided to play the leglock game with the wrong guy. If we're still talking street defense, for some reason, it's not a big risk, even if your leg locks are at white belt level, because most people haven't the first clue how to defend their own legs, much less attack someone else's. Most leg control positions have your own feet placed below your opponent's hips, placing them out of the way for even most accidental locks. I'm not advocating looking for a leg lock while in someone's guard in a SD situation. What I'm saying is that they are relatively safe holds to apply, if you've taken the time to learn how. I mean, dropping them because some high-level guys (who may or may not be particularly skilled at that hold?) have been countered is like dropping the single or double-leg takedown because some guys have gotten guillotined when they went for them. Learn how to do them right, and you won't get countered. Finally, being on the side is far better than being on the back. It's halfway to a technical stand-up: post with the bottom arm, slide the bottom leg out, and you're there. Again, not advocating staying on the ground when it would be more strategically advantageous to avoid it, just saying that the risk is far less than I think you're making it out to be.
It might very well be they tried to leg lock someone better at leg locks than they were, ive also see guys try to arm bar dean and fail, didn’t mean they offered up their own arm for him to snap at the same time, and that’s the risk im talking about, you generally put your legs closer to your opponent which may not be a good idea especially if you don’t have control of his upper body. You might see the risks as slim, I personally see them as a bit more especially if the guys knows how to escape the locks and doesn’t panic and tap at the first attempt. Against someone with no leg lock experience you are right there’s no real danger (other than limiting your mobility of he’s not alone) but then generally I wouldn’t expect someone with no grappling experience to have a guard you needed to break and pass in the first place It might be half way to a technical standup, but its still going from a position when you can stand up and move easily (on your knees and his guard open) to one where you have to first disengage from his legs, then post a arm, slide the leg out and stand up, its all relative and from a SD point of view it’s a bit silly to purposefully do that to yourself wouldn’t you agree? I didn’t think you were advocating looking for one from the top in a SD situation, and neither am I for the reasons stated above
If you're putting yourself in a position to be countered with a leglock, your leglocks suck. The lower-half game is as much about "position before submission" as the upper-half game. Now admittedly, I myself wasn't as aware of this fact until a couple of years ago, so I'm guessing it isn't taught very well in most circles, but... well, let me put it this way. You know the "pommel horse" set-up to an arm-bar from mount that every beginner learns? And how you don't really see it at the higher levels? It's because it's a very loose set-up that relies on your opponent sucking for it to work. That's what I see when a lot of folks attempt a leg lock. It's the lower-half equivalent of that. Again, no technique is without risk, but having better technique lowers that risk. People get their guards passed throwing up triangle and arm bars from guard all the time: it usually has to do with holes in their own game as opposed to the technique itself being inadvisable. And actually it's less about controlling the guy's upper body than controlling his lower body. You basically need to have your leg between his, giving him control of your thigh, before he can attempt a lock- a sloppy 50/50 position, basically. But if you've triangled your legs, there's not much he can get to. If you split him or go for the "leg knot" he's not going to have any base to effectively attack your legs. Even the simple "knee reap" position keeps one of your legs tucked behind him, and the other pressuring his knee down, forcing him almost to his belly, and is too far away from his armpits and belly to be attacked. Add to that some drills building your own leg dexterity, and you cut off every avenue of escape. It's not even that complex, just most people don't train it or search it out. I also think you're oversimplifying "just standing up" from open guard. You can't post on the ground, because you'll get swept or Kimura'd. You have to be careful of where you post on his body, because you risk getting arm barred, triangled, swept, or your back taken. Just trying to pop up without a post leaves you off-balance. You have to be very careful how you come to your feet, as even an untrained guy might knock you off-balance. Compared to this, the technical stand-up poses no more risk. I'd actually say it poses LESS risk. And you DON'T have to disengage with his legs. Either they'll slip out once you remove your bottom leg (50/50), or they get jerked painfully upward, possibly with damage (knee reap). Look, I'm not trying to bust your chops or be difficult. I'm honestly a little personally invested in this because leg locks are my favorite class of technique, and I think they get a bad rap most of the time. I've spent a lot of time over the past few years reviewing mechanics, set-ups, follow-ups, flows, control positions, and counters. I've researched the hell out of them, and have taught what I've learned to others. Three weeks ago, I drilled the straight ankle lock from guard with control positions, with my only real "student"; last week, while rolling, I gave him a chance to set up a leg control, and he immediately hid his feet so that I couldn't escape or counter him. Now, he's really diligent about learning the grappling game, but I've been his only source of instruction, about once a week for two years or so now. He's learned leglocks from no one else. Yet, one session was enough to teach him how to apply a leglock from guard in such a way that it completely negates the "you might be countered" argument. I've rolled with blue belts, and even some purples, who weren't as educated about leg placement in leg locks. While it is an isolated incident, I think it lends some weight to the idea that most people learn leglocks in a sub-optimum way. I partly blame the IBJJF and their "no knee reaping" rule, but it doesn't change the fact that there isn't a whole lot of good LL technique out there. With all due respect, Icefield, I suspect you either haven't been taught the optimum way to apply LL's from inside guard, or at the very least haven't invested the time that I have into them. Emotional attachment to the class of locks aside, if they were a college course, I'd have at least a Bachelor's degree in them.
sorry you lost me after this, or rather i stopped reading because its such a silly statement i cant take anything else you say seriously so enjoy your training, i mean go tell the ADCC guys they suck because they got counter leglocked, im sure they will take that very well coming from a blue belt? lol maybe you are right maybe i know nothing about leglocks: i mean my coach is known for his leg locks over here in the UK and regularly is asked by other pro gyms (and UFC fighters) in the UK to teach them. But that means little i suppose In addition to training with my coach in leglocks, ive trained with the likes of billy robinson, dean lister and john kavenagh (they are a passion of mine have been ever since i lost my first comp to one about a decade ago. In addition our coach has also brought over 10th planet guys to teach leg locks, ryan hall, roli delgado and Marcelo Brigadeiro to name a few and passed on what they have taught him. But again that means nothing.
If you could post a video showing how you're vulnerable to counter-leglocks while going for a leglock, I'd be happy to post a video showing you how to fix that.
