Lawyers warn against Krav?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by liero, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. liero

    liero Valued Member

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...-popular-form-of-israeli-self-defence/5265412

    Krav maga, Israeli self-defence system, gaining popularity amid focus on alcohol-fuelled violence

    The national focus on alcohol-fuelled violence has seen a surge of interest in self-defence, including a controversial program used by the Israeli army called krav maga.

    Proponents say krav maga, Hebrew for contact combat, is the perfect weapon for dealing with drunken thugs because it allows women, in particular, to overpower much larger opponents.

    But krav maga attacks aim to inflict the maximum physical harm and criminal lawyers are warning those who use it could end up in jail.

    Krav maga was designed in the 1930s to protect European Jews from fascist attacks. Later, it became mandatory in the Israeli army.

    A few years ago krav maga was unheard of in Australia, but now new schools are opening right around the country.

    "It can look brutal, it certainly can," said instructor Alex Trafton, who has worked as an Israeli military contractor.

    "But if you look at what the need for krav maga is, it's these king hits in Kings Cross. There's a 17-year-old or 18-year-old kid who's now dead because of this.

    "Ask him if he would have liked to be able to punch the guy in the throat first or kick him in the groin first and I think at this point the options are clear."

    Students taught to target eyes, groin

    Krav maga teaches people how to go for the throat, eyes, neck and groin, and it teaches them to go hard.

    Online videos for krav maga also teach how to break bones.

    "You need to target vulnerable areas [and] be very aggressive in your counter attack to disable that person. That is the fundamental principle of krav maga," Mr Trafton said.

    Criminal lawyer Andrew Tiedt says eye gouging could see krav maga students fall foul of the law, and that blinding a person could see them jailed.

    "In the majority of cases I'd say eye gouging probably goes beyond what a court would see as being appropriate, in those circumstances," he said.

    "I think people should be very careful if they plan on defending themselves aggressively that they do only what is reasonable to defend themselves from the fear they perceive.

    "If people are going to go out there and start flogging anyone who looks at them sideways they'd be taking a very, very big risk."

    Mr Trafton says he will not train people who he thinks will use krav maga for the wrong reasons.

    "It's important that I reinforce that they do it always legally, and that the force is proportionate," he said.

    "I will not train people who have violent history, who have violent tendencies due to mental illness, or who have a criminal record.

    "I won't at all be involved in training those people because this is a tool to help people defend themselves, not to victimise people."

    Former commando teaches krav maga to women, prostitutes

    Former Army Commando Kevin Marshall runs a krav maga program called Fight Like a Girl, in which he teaches women how to fight in casual clothes they might wear on a night out.

    "We had young mums, people who didn't feel comfortable, people who had been attacked in the past, also members of the lesbian, gay and transgender community who didn't feel comfortable training - and I saw that they needed this program," Mr Marshall said.

    "We've had people come in very, very quiet and very meek and mild and turn into lionesses after the program. It's great to see."

    Mr Marshall and instructor Cathy Grapsias also teach krav maga to prostitutes and strippers, acting out a range of attack scenarios.

    "That's a very marginalised group in society and the people who really need self-defence skills. Those women are in high-risk occupations and they sometimes are in real risk of danger," he said.

    "I remember when I originally spoke with a sex workers outreach program, their president had to cancel the meeting because one of her workers was killed the night before."

    A random attack in a pub left intellectual property lawyer Blair Bevan with good reasons to learn how to defend himself.

    "He picked a glass and he smashed that in the side of my face, so it was a pretty violent act, completely unexpected and unprovoked," he said.

    "I was very lucky. I could have lost an eye."

    Mr Bevan says he used krav maga recently to defend himself at a rugby match.

    "This guy came at me pretty aggressively and I was able to block his punch and then was able to strike him in the face, which is not nice but I felt pretty threatened and that was the end of it," he said.



    Thoughts?
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    The lawyer is pretty much regurgitating the law: use only what is reasonable in the circumstances. It's not what technique(s) you use but how you explain your reason(s) for using it/them in the situation to the police and (here in the UK) the CPS that determines the outcome of legal proceedings. Use of force in an attempted rape at knifepoint will be different to a drunken lout shouting abuse outside a chippy on Saturday night. That said, I think a lot of Krav fails because a lot of instructors don't know the first thing about the legal system. I'm paraphrasing a lot of jwt's stuff here and he'll articulate this stuff much better than I can.
     
  3. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Its an interesting idea though. Krav markets itself as being the most badass, destructive, bone-crippling at in the world and really plays off the IDF link. Its advertising is basically a banner saying its the definition of excessive force. If I was an opposing lawyer I'd certainly look into using that against a person who used it.
     
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Also a lot of the stuff you see demod is in the Ameri-do-te hurticane league.
     
  5. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Way I see it Ben is the mindset most Krav clubs promote, certainly from the ones I have trained with has been finishing the assailant as fast and as brutally as possible rather than doing enough the stop the assault and escaping to safety.

    Dependant on clubs and different orgs of course but most seem to promote overwhelming the assailant, webbing him in the throat and kneeing someone unconscious with multiple strikes will lead you into hot water legally.

    Cheers

    Dan
     
  6. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I think that's a really good point. I know that, in reality, most of that is simply advertising spin. But the krav schools use it to boost enrollment. And there's no good reason why a prosecutor couldn't use it as well to build his case. Live by the exaggeration. Die by the exaggeration.

    You can't promote yourself with violence and expect it not to come up as a topic of conversation in a case like this.
     
  7. Pearlmks

    Pearlmks Valued Member

    I´m sure they do... :evil:
     
  8. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    While KM is something that should be respected... it should be done so by someone who has learned from a GOOD teacher or is a GOOD student of one. I have a real issue with certain arts that give that false sense of security and KM IMO is largely one of them.
     
  9. Pearlmks

    Pearlmks Valued Member

    KM seems to sometimes suffer the Mcdojo syndrome, at least around here.
     
  10. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    actually... let me elaborate, in my CHKD class obviously trapping is a big part of the art, however, trapping a drunk looping punch is what you are training for. If I used the same jab that I have worked on for years when it comes to just snapping it out and back... even my instructors would NOT be able to catch and trap that punch. Movement would only cause more problems in that instance. Would I be able to use the joint locks I have learned? In certain situations absolutely... and I would use them. The problem is I am not going to just stand there and wait for a guy to throw the punch at me. He's throwing a looping punch and by that time I throw a quick jab, straight right hand and I'm already on the other side of him before he realizes it. (not that I'm some really awesome boxer, but I'm fast enough that I could do it vs. an untrained person who is attacking me).
     
  11. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    Someone should warn us about lawyers.
     
  12. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    no, really it's everywhere. It's such a shame that many arts are overlooked. Can you imagine if Muay Thai was put on tv and in our faces all the time how many crappy teachers would suddenly start showing up? Take that with any art.
     
  13. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    lol, yes they really should. I have a good one at least :p
     
  14. Pearlmks

    Pearlmks Valued Member

    The difference is that Muay Thai has the great leveler that is competition, if you're useless it shows. So there's some kind of filter. But a system that partly markets itself by basically saying you can't compete or even spar with the real techniques is much harder to judge, especially by those trying a MA for the first time.
     
  15. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    A lot of Krav Maga is ninjer larping for the COD generation.
     
  16. Pearlmks

    Pearlmks Valued Member

    The dream of every kid... to be a deadly spec ops soldier
     
  17. southernKarate

    southernKarate New Member

    I noticed in my old style that they stopped teaching certain moves as they were dangerous , my old instructor would teach us off syllabus things like neck breaks and strikes but i wouldn't consider using them .

    He once said to us its better to be the one in the dock than the one in the ground.
     
  18. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    can I use this for my sig ? made me chuckle
     
  19. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    "Hulk Smash !"

    "Nads Nads Hulk Smash...

    And that concludes today's lesson - You pay now?"
     
  20. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I have not seen a single technique use in krave maga that is not used in traditional kungfu or karate.

    Krave maga is not of itself more or less effective than any other art, nor is it more or less violent than any other art.

    It is as suitable the the cobra kai mentality ; miss-representation, miss-marketing, bad teaching and irresponsible use, as any art.
     

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