This is why I don't come here anymore. If it's not those in the WKSA jumping on the throats of those that left, it's those that left taking the bait of those in the WKSA or bashing the WKSA any chance they get. The question was simple: what do you think a master should be called (i.e., your deffinition of ranks). How is that an issue? We are now having a talk about what should come first: aquaman rank or mighty mouse rank. Gee, I don't know, maybe we should talk about "arm-chair master" rank? Grow up.
Is this really true? Kicks does not give out Aquaman rank (or Mighty Mouse rank) but if it did, Aquaman rank would be 7th dan? Could you please provide a link?
Hyeongsa, you are correct, but remember that a conversation can and sometimes needs to derail a little to allow it to get back on track. :evil:
What I am trying to get at is very simple, every style calls their black belts titles something a little different. Why? If you think 5th Dan = Master then why not call them that. seogsa (석사). For this is the word that means Master in Korean. or maybe these: myeongsu (명수) , jibaeja (지배자) they all mean master in just different ways. From Master like in a RULER to a Master Artist. But none of them get close to Kwah Jahng Nim. :evil:
Why does an Asian language have to conform to your way of thinking? You are trying to pidgeonhole titles and monikers according to your own worldview, which is very much skewed. The answer you seek has been answered in post #3 by klaasb. Take note the correlation between position and title. The job position originally dictated the title. This is still very much true in many of the modern martial armies. For example, in the US Army, a question may be asked what a "general" is and who gets this title. You may get a bunch of different answers but the truth is: the position makes the title. So how does a 3-star general get be a 4-star? When a 4-star position opens up and s/he gets the job. How does a 2-star become a 3-star? When a 3-star position opens up and s/he gets the job....etc etc etc. Having traversed out of Asia, there has been a great bastardization of what is and what is not a "master." This notion has always been a western thing and trying to back-peddle and attribute an Americanized worldview onto original Korean position is akin to you re-branding a 7th dan as Aquaman level.
When you put in the word Master into English dictionary you get this: mas·ter noun \ˈmas-tər\ Definition of MASTER 1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's b often capitalized : a revered religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal 2 a : one having authority over another : ruler, governor b : one that conquers or masters : victor, superior <in the new challenger the champion found his master> c : a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1) : one having control (2) : an owner especially of a slave or animal e : the employer especially of a servant f (1) dialect : husband (2) : the male head of a household 3 a (1) archaic : mr. (2) : a youth or boy too young to be called mister —used as a title b : the eldest son of a Scottish viscount or baron 4 a : a presiding officer in an institution or society (as a college) b : any of several officers of court appointed to assist (as by hearing and reporting) a judge 5 a : a master mechanism or device b : an original from which copies can be made; especially : a master recording (as a magnetic tape) — mas·ter·ship noun See master defined for English-language learners » See master defined for kids » Examples of MASTER As a slave he was required to do his master's bidding without question. The dog was always obedient to its master. the master and mistress of the house She is a master of her craft. Origin of MASTER Middle English, from Old English magister & Anglo-French meistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large — more at much First Known Use: before 12th century Related to MASTER Synonyms: ace, adept, artist, authority, cognoscente, connoisseur, crackerjack (also crackajack), dab [chiefly British], dab hand [chiefly British], fiend, geek, guru, hand, hotshot, maestro, expert, maven (also mavin), meister, past master, proficient, scholar, shark, sharp, virtuoso, whiz, wizard Antonyms: amateur, inexpert, nonexpert what does Kwahn Jahng Nim mean, in the literal sense and the more common Martial Art terminology way. For there is conflicting info on it. :evil:
Vegas, if you have nothing to help this post I would really like you to just go away. If you can tell help in anyway then great stay. CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION OR NOT? If you can great, then answer it. :evil:
Because everyone in the TKMA world uses these 2 words interchangeable. What I have researched they do not mean the same thing. I am doing research for my own. I have been told Master is like a Master Painter, then I also have been told it is like a person in charge ( which gives a little "slavery" attitude ). Then again if you look back into the movies and certain groups) you seem to get an almost worship style of use. Yes I know these are WESTERN thoughts but some do come the source (Korea). Vegas, if you have nothing to help this post I would really like you to just go away. If you can tell help in anyway then great stay. CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION OR NOT? If you can great, then answer it. :evil:
If you are inferring to the post #3, then it has been answered by one person and it is what it means to them. I am looking for more than one persons views and the true definition of the word. :evil:
How do you know post #3 isn't the true definition? You give no evidence that it is not. Instead, you try to define a Korean term using an English dictionary. Further, you don't realize that you have asked an open-ended simple question and have gotten the appropriate response in #3. Perhaps if you asked better questions, you'd arrive at better answers.
So far all I know is KwanJang = Director, KukSa = Affairs, SaBeom = Master so why does Koreans call 5th dan Master and 4th dan Instructor but in their own language 4th is Master? This is one of the things I want other peoples opinions on. :evil:
I like it much more basic - a "master" is someone who has studied the art diligently through the various ranks/belts/etc and has become an instructor who has trained students in the art to black belt level. A "grandmaster" is someone who has continued on and been involved in the art to the point where s/he has raised students to "master" level. I remember my Korean black belt card that listed a new title for each level - I don't need anything that specific. I know some groups ahve a different name for each dan rank (and sometimes uniforms) - too much for me. I get more mileage out of "assistant instructor", "instructor", "senior instructor" and "master instructor" - I prefer these levels to be appointments based on the teaching ability of a person rather than "just" a rank.
I found a thread that has helped me out allot. What's in a name? KwanJang, SaBeom, KyoSa etc. What I get out of skimming it is that there is NO real answer to the question. For every stye use similar titles for different ranks. What I can assume is that it all depends on the person you are asking. How ever I did notice one thing, It is the Western thought as the 5th Dan = "master" level. So I still stand by my first question.... what is your opinion? :evil:
I had a wonderful experience training with KJN KIM Yun Sang and there was very often a discussion about various titles. When asked about being identified as "DOJU" he stated that it meant "custodian (of the art)" to him. A KWANJANG is the head of a KWAN and a KWAN is a group who have dientified a purpose and have agreed on the manner in which that goal needs to be accomplished. I have a bunch of different titles listed on my website terminology section but never really understood the idea for them. I have always suspected, though, that individuals who made much of such things were trying to butter-up their image to impress others more than delve more deeply into their art. IMHO. Bets Wishes, Bruce
That could be Bruce, however large organizations such as Kuk Sool Won need to be able to distinguish between ranks particularly when large number of participants are involved. Titles become a way to acknowledge different levels within an organization not necessarily important outside of the org. I wouldn't expect anyone outside of Kuk Sool Won to address me in the same way as one that was a member would. The etiquette system in most TMA regardless of the terminology is used to create a "chain of command" so to speak. Nit picking on the meaning of one or more specific terms that are being used is a waste of brain cells IMO. Time would be better served training and perfecting technique.
All I have to say on that is: a man who does not question things will never learn as much as he could if only he asked. OK, I lied one more thing: Obewan, would you use the title Master when talking to lets say Master Simms, or Master Seo, or Master Lee or would just call them by there first names? Titles are earned ( most of the time ) Even if a Doctor did not graduate from the same school than another doctor do they not Respect themselves and others to call them by there title? So I could just call you Padawan?
In my experience in Korea you are either called a sabeomnim or a kwanjangnim. Kwanjangnim is anyone with a 5th dan or higher and who runs his own school.
