Kung Fu: What's Your View On It?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Shen Yin, Jun 3, 2005.

  1. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Many years ago, I had seen an old tape. It was a promo-documentary for Kyokushinkai-Kan Karate, Fighting Black Kings. Now during this, they were following mostly the 70's American practitioners, Willy Williams and William Oliver (both great fighters of their day and God bless his soul, Shuseki Shihan Oliver).

    At the same time, they were showing off Kyokushin shools worldwide; Singapore, Japan, etc. Muay Thai fighters were invited, and then......*sigh* they had these "Kung Fu" fighters from Hong Kong. Excuse me, *ahem* SUPPOSED Kung Fu fighters...

    Anyhow, these guys were just flat-out slobs, seriously. I dunno WHAT the hell they were trying to do on that rooftop, but it wasn't any form of Wu Kung (true name) that I'm familiar with. Essentially, these guys were getting owned so badly that people within the audience were laughing at how weak they were.

    It didn't take long for it to sink in that this was a set up on their part and that these guys really weren't any form of Kung Fu fighters (whatever the hell that means) to begin with.

    Now, I'm fully aware of the long racial rivalries between the Chinese and the Japanese (hopefully, we won't get into this); the martial arts are just another form of that rivalry. However, it makes me wonder:

    Do you guys really view us that way?

    Now let me be frank with you. I've fought MANY Karate-Ka, my father was one of the east coast pioneers during the 70's. However, my practicing Wu Kung has had me become pointed at for several reasons. Mainly, supposedly not being able to fight, or be tough in full contact combat or reality combat.

    Well, for one, in between Shotokan, Kyokushin, Wado Ryu and Shorin Ryu and one from a supposed Koga Ryu (I know, I know, it's Ninjutsu, not Karate), I can say that I've destroyed that stereotype quickly. My original school, being of Southern Fist, is extremely rough in training and our first and always primary objective for combat was based around quickly (and in my Sifu's case, aggressively) defeating the opponent.

    Is the rivalry THAT bad between us? I have a friend residing in Harlem who helps run his father's Goju Ryu school (Grand Master Hymen) and we agree on many things and have practiced together a couple of times.

    Personal pride issues aside; what gives?
     
  2. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    In Britain no one seems to think Kung Fu is rubbish. In fact a few people at my Shotokan club have done Wing Chun and don't hesitate to recommend it to others. My brother does Dragon style Kung Fu - unfortunately I haven't had the chance to train with his club yet - and theirs is full on, full contact training. I have a great respect for Kung Fu, like all arts, when the training is done properly - which yours evidently is.

    As far as I am aware, over here there is no real rivalry - except rivalry between different fighters as you said.
     
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I'm a fan of Kung Fu, theres a Hung Kuen club at my university and theres never been any real rivalry (partly because their master is a scary old Chinese bloke with a big sword)
     
  4. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    Kung Fu is awesome.
     
  5. New Guy

    New Guy I am NEW.

    I think Kung Fu is just another solution to the same problem... there are many different kinds of Kung Fu anyway right? And some of them are very very different depend on your sifu/club/whatever.

    Is Tai Chi considered as Kung Fu???
     
  6. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    I believe so. It's one of the three "internal" styles from China.
     
  7. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    I think kung fu is very similar to karate in the sense that it is a style that (or should) includes all ranges, and all techniques (meaning grappling, locks, throws etc. as well as striking from all ranges and positions). So I rate kung fu, in theory, very highly.
     
  8. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    Kung Fu is a great art in my opinion and I'd love to learn it. The thing to remember is Kyukoshin Karate is brutal barefist fighitng karate and is typically taught as such. Not many other arts can compare to the level of conditioning and damage dealing that Kyukoshin Karateka portray.
     
  9. Tank Gurl

    Tank Gurl A Thorny Rose

    I believe that anyone who can make a fist can deal damage, training or not.
     
  10. TheBeast

    TheBeast New Member

    Kung Fu focuses more on the mental aspects of not only combat but life. In my Kung Fu school we read books constantly and study the Buddhist 4 Noble Truths. In my style of Kung Fu we believe the body obviously has its physical limitations but as far as we know the human mind does not. Therefore if you can coordinate the mind with the body to form "mental extensions" then you will need no physcal strength to defeat your opponent. And when you master this you can defeat anyone except your inner self. It's pretty confusing stuff but I've seen my instructor take on a Karate instructor downtown and he whoops him up everytime. Of course I'm NOT at all saying that Kung Fu is better than Karate. I'm sure there are many many karate masters that could level my instructor with their eyes closed but I do admit my instructor is little, thin, and as hard and fast as he hits, you have to believe all of this mind body stuff is true.
     
  11. New Guy

    New Guy I am NEW.

    Beast, for that level of art(your sifu), I would believe it is the comparison of the person but not the art.
     
  12. TheBeast

    TheBeast New Member

    Exactly, none of them are better than the other because both teach you to become a better person. What is greater than that?
     
  13. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Yeah, I don't see any big ideological rivalry between kung fu and karate. To be honest, such rivalries tend to happen at a club level. For example, the main rival club where I live is tae kwon do, so when we all get a bit drunk after training we cuss tae kwon do. It doesn't mean anything, and their instructor is a good friend of mine, but they're automatically "the baddies" just by virtue of being our rivals in recruiting.

    The same thing happens on this message board, when the non-kata people start on the kata people or the TMAs vs the MMAs. Even if we all get on fine on a personal level and have respect for each other as martial artists, we still argue and put down our rivals for being the "outgroup". There's a lot of work in social psychology about how we define our group membership and how this affects our behaviour. For example, if a kung fu person was telling me how rubbish karate was, I'd feel obliged to defend karate and put down kung fu, but if a non-martial-artist was telling me how rubbish martial arts such as kung fu and karate are, I'd feel obliged to defend kung fu and say how great it is. It's just human nature.
     
  14. New Guy

    New Guy I am NEW.

    Well not all rivalries are bad... I competes with my friends in our programming class and see who can wrote the best script... competition agrument debating makes people use their brain and think, and as long as rivals are respecting each other and keep positive sprit, it isn't so bad.
     
  15. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Yeah, I think on the whole that's the kind of rivalries we have in the MAs
     
  16. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Dude, I can tell you from personal experience that Kyokushin Kai is simply the basic conditioning of most Southern Fists. Not meant to insult anyone here involved within the Fist, but we've been training like this since I can remember and previous generations for thousands of years beforehand. Even Shaolin Temple has had these methods, with the exception of wearing out their bodies (as it was balanced with liniments and medicines for longevity).

    Remember, Kyokushin trains simply in bare-fisted combat and takes place in sports. Most Southern schools were training for the war fields, revolutions and for military operations. I respect Masutatsu Oyama greatly, but the likes of Kyoukushin's "toughness" has been around since the inception of methods such as Huo Yuen Jia's Chin Woo school (Lost Track Fist), Ba Ji Chuan, Hung Gar, Tiger schools, Ngo Cho Kuen, Fukien Fists, Shuai Chiao and even our school.

    Physical conditioning is SUPPOSED to be a basic trait within external martial arts, which many people take for granted; Kyokushin/Southern Fist are no different. I've played hands and sparred with a few here in NYC and let me tell you, it's just basic martial arts.
     
  17. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    I agree with everyone that any MA that can make you a better person is indeed worthy of the practice. However, the rivalry issue usually seems to come up for some odd reason. Especially from friends of mine; but usually not as serious as many practitioners of the past 20 years or so.

    While I do have a few friends within the MA's, they're usually (and preferably) of the "mixed breed". Sometimes I do run into a few "special" guys who fall into the rivalry category. However, these type of individuals exist everywhere in every art, no matter where you look.

    It's just this "Karate over Kung Fu" thorn seems to keep coming up. I dunno, but you guys are much more positive than the many I've run into, or even have read about as well.
     
  18. kungfufighter

    kungfufighter Banned Banned

    To me, kung fu has way to many forms and stances, in a fight your opponent doesn't wait for you to get into a stance, you need to be ready to throw fro many stance or position
     
  19. New Guy

    New Guy I am NEW.

    Not totally correct, there is no one single form of Kung Fu anyway...

    But what you said applies to any art, when you get into a fight, you just fight.
     
  20. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Hmmn, okay, how do I break this down......*tsk*

    Well, Wu Kung in all actuality doesn't contain many stances, at least not from a static point of view. There are the same amount of stances within Wu Kung as their are in Japanese MA's; considering that all Japanese MA's derive from Wu Kung in the first place.
    Most people gain this misconception either from idiots who don't understand what's going on when they're practicing the Fists and or Hong Kong cinema. "Stances" in CMA merely describe positioning methods and theories, however "stances" themselves are completely transitional. Unless you're directly meaning to break another persons knees at close range in Ma Bu, or use deliberate crushing power within a punch, NO STANCE should ever be static in expression.

    You're absolutely right, no one in reality fights from a single stance. That's why they're supposed to be transitional; from movement to movement. A constant Yin-Yang in flow, much like water, if that sounds familiar to you. Just take it from a common sense standpoint: do you honestly believe that when these Fists were created for the battlefield, they were meant to be executed from static, pre-determined, robotic positioning methods.

    I think not.

    Now as far as their being too many styles, there's another thing to clear up. A "style" and a "system" are two different things. Even still, there are so many systems/styles due to the fact that China as a whole takes up a 1/4 of the world's population. Combined with the fact that they have thousands and thousands of years of in-fighting, clan feuding, government revolutions, etc. Each Fist was created as a means of surviving and adapting according to the set conditions of the time.

    Now if you meant "forms" as in literal "sets" or in Japanese, kata...then that is yet another misconception. Take for instance, Kenpo. Each one of the forms available lasts anywhere from 10-20 min. to complete and the system itself contains anywhere from 6-10 forms depending on where you go (such as Kara-Ho Kenpo Karate). Much like any other MA, Wu Kung fists have varying numbers of forms involved. Mine for instance, contained only about 7-8 forms out of all the sub-systems within the entire system.

    You have to remember, in CMA's, forms are more like data on a floppy disk. They contain vast amounts of concepts, training methods, energies, conditioning, footwork etc. involved within a condensed set of movements. That's why it takes so many years to master A(!) form. These sets were created as a means of passing along the ideas and spurts of euphoria that existed within the creative process and then for the expert practitioner to continue it along. Not to statically repeat the same form-set over and over and over again. It is SUPPOSED to be a means of evolution for each generation.

    It doesn't have anything to do with how many punches, kicks or whether you're doing an "H" pattern within it. It's what's within the forms concepts and how much can be extracted from it.

    Hopefully that can help clear up some misconceptions here......
     

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