Hey guys, I've been thinking of trying out Kung Fu for a while. I've been doing Muay Thai and TKD for 16 years now and well I think it's time for a change. Want to see what else is out there for me and all that. Now as someone who dosn't really know all that much about Kung Fu, how it's taught etc, I could possibly be a sucker for some stupid Kung Fu Mcdojo to take my money. Thing is, I understand what makes a Muay Thai McDojo a McDojo (same with TKD) but I don't know what to look for in a Kung Fu school. What should I be looking for, to tell me wether or not I'll be wasting my money and learning bollocks? What are the tell tale signs of any cheapo Kung Fu academy? I know this is kind of a vague question, but so is my knowledge of good Kung Fu teaching methods. Thanks
First of all I would start with a traditional style and not a hybrid that will cut your losses of mc dojo if it is expensive then the school is driven by money and getting students in and out. Look for linage of the style and check there creditionals if they belong to an association or not. But if the association is called blue dragon fly’s south society etc etc steer well clear. If you apply common sense as you did with tkd and mt you wont go far wrong. But be warned kung fu is nothing like MT or tkd be prepared for a shock There so many styles out there and they wil all contradict the other hope that helps
If they spar, well at least the seniors, and it is either slap fu or looks like bad kickboxing it is a mcdojo. If they charge some rediclous training fee it is likely that it is a mcdojo. If there aren't a few hardcore students training in there it could be a mcdojo. If you start weapons training straight away it is a mcdojo. I'd be very suspicious if the masters hands didn't look highly conditioned. If it is a southern style and there is a lot of high kicking it could be a mcdojo. Really with the experience you have if you are not impressed by some of the stuff in the class then there is possible something wrong.
There's another distinction worth thinking about with CMAs. There are many schools out there that place primary emphasis on kung fu for health, my guess is it's a smaller number that place emphasis on kung fu for fighting. In terms of that they won't be trying to mislead and will probably be very upfront about it. Watch out for lots of time spent meditating, talking philosophy, chi stuff and other things not related to fighting. Full contact fighting should be part of the gradings at some point once the basics are covered.
Shadow, you've been through two schools at this point, you know what to look for. The best thing I can tell you is the same the same thing I would tell anyone else. Go to the school, take a look at the classes, and then report back. Anyone can say what is and isn't a McKwoon; we can't give you specific answers until you tell us what you saw.
Dittoing what everyone has said - what makes a "Mc" a "Mc" (or perhaps even the dreaded Bullshido) is pretty consistant across all styles. The specifics may change a bit, but good instruction (and by proxy good fighting) should be more or less the same anywhere you go. - Matt
You should look for a place with a proper training mentality. The practitioners should all train with intent. The instructor should stress good technique instead of speed and power. They should be able to fight. If you go to a kung fu school, where the intent of the training is well known, but the students are not realizing that intent with their practice, it is a mcdojo.
You are probably more qualified than most to make that judgement. If you go to a class and think, “this is ****e” than chances are it is, if you think “this is awesome”, then it probably is, for you anyway. If you like what they teach and how they teach, its happy days!
The best way to protect yourself from a Mc Kwoon, is to be right up front with the sifu. Let him know about your Muay Thai background and what you're looking for from your training. If he starts to talk about we're better or more hardcore or talks down of your MT training, that's a pretty good sign of a Mc Kwoon. Ask him specific questions of how his style would react in fighting a Muay Thai fighter. If the teacher can't offer you answers to your specific questions, then chances are it's a Mc Kwoon. If they talk about it taking longer to be an efficent fighter within gung fu and all the spiritual stuff, chances are it's a Mc Kwoon. You can be an decent efficent fighter within gung fu, if the training is geared that way, within a few months. I'm not saying you'll be winning NHB events, but you should have a decent basics skill set that you could use to fight with. Most hardcore gung fu schools have closed door sessions, ask if they do. jeff
Here's my rule of thumb. Can the teacher produce an official sanction from a proper lineage? It usually comes in a form of flag or a framed calligraphy commemorating the opening of his school signed by his Sifu. Take Lum Jo lineage Hung Ga: I can count on one hand the number of students in the America actually sanctioned by Grandmaster Lum Jo himself. These students each taught only handful of students each who are qualified to teach. These qualified teachers in turn had very few students they actually sanctioned. So the actual number of legitimate instructors are very small. Yet there are hundreds of schools claiming to teach Hung Ga. Anyone who did not stick around long enough to receive the entire art has no business teaching. He's a fly-by-night and his school is a McDojo by my book.
Like to echo what everyone else has said. Also tell the sifu about your past experience in MT. If he critisises MT then thats a very bad sign. Most bad schools respect other genuine arts and most bad schools try and make out their art is far better, its good marketing!
I was thinking more along the lines of thick hands and thick fingers if that makes sense rather than girly looking hands.
I doubt you can judge soley on price as a factor since we live in societies based on the market system. Simply having high prices or a contract is not a sign of a McDojo. That being said lineage should be clear. I hate Westernized systems as they tend to throw in Chinese & Japanese ma's in with little understanding of them.
Thanks heaps for the input guys. Helps a lot. http://www.chinesekungfu.com.au/ Probably a McKwoon right? It's so close to my house, I'll still check it out anyhow. I'll keep checking back in and get your advice on differeny places I try out. Thanks again.
OK, I have so got to address a few points here: 1. Price is not an indication of "McKwoon" status. Some of us are aware that good MT or BJJ training, for example, can be very pricey. Would you call an expensive MT gym a "McDojo" just because it's expensive? NO. It's the quality of the training which counts. 2. Some of you are placing waaaayyyy too much emphasis on this whole "lineage" thing. If you're into CMA because you want something with a distinctly chinese feel to it, that's certainly something to look for. But as we have seen with certain styles, lineage doesn't mean squat. While I agree that you want to avoid someone who has mixed things up to the point it's not recognizable as a martial art, I totally disagree with this notion of "lineage" as a way to validate a kwoon. It doesn't matter if the instructor can trace his lineage back to the Mongols if he can't teach and the style isn't effective. No need to be lineagewhores. 3. What's wrong with hybrid systems? I study a hybrid system, and I personally have found that it's probably the best system I've ever studied. It has a lot to it, it covers weapons, grappling, stand up, etc, and it certainly has many aspects lacking in a lot of CMA schools which emphasize one style, let alone the fact that it's the most complete style I've ever studied. Once again, it's a matter of what the instructor is teaching and how well it's taught. Again, if you're looking for something "chinese" for the sake of studying something "chinese", it may not be for you. But if the system is effective and the instruction is good, I don't see the need to be a stylewhore. 4. Some schools emphasize "kickboxing". San Shou and San Da, anyone? No, it probably doesn't look good for an upper-level PM or Bagua student to try and fight like a poorly trained kickboxer, but if you live in a major city and want to study a Chinese "sports" martial art, certainly San Da and San Shou will look more like kickboxing because that's in essence what they are. Cung Le has done quite well with it, and for someone with an interest in a more sport-oriented MA, San Da/San Shou would be a good fit.
i agree that the price shouldn't be the make or break with deciding on a school, but sometimes its a peek into what the instructor/owner is there for. yes, its a business, and yes, lights need to be on... okay need is a bit of strong word, but taxes must be paid, right? but is the teacher more interested in that monthly check or in your learning progress? hmm... i'm going to humbly disagree with gangrel on the whole lineage thing. lineage doesn't mean squat if the teacher and/or style are crap, true. but someone who has skipped from sifu to sifu, kwoon to kwoon with only a few year s worth of experience in any of them isn't someone i would put my martial arts future in. its like one of those printer/copier/fax machines. sure it does all that wonderful stuff, but it doesn't perform any one of those functions really well. :bang: stupid printer/copier/fax... it also depends on if you are taking kung fu for. if you are in it for the culture, experience and ( ) the martial arts then i would definitely take lineage, price (to a certain degree) and tradition into consideration. if its just fighting then i agree 100% with gangrel.
What does this mean? Do you disagree? I am assuming you are saying your master's hands are far from girly hands. The problem with starting weapons training straightaway is if you can't put power into your hand then you certainly can't put it into a weapon. All good schools teach you the basics first. With CMA foundation is of upmost importance. I'm guessing you disagree with this. Feel free to debate. GrangelChilde well even SanShou doesn't really look like bad kickboxing. If you look at the top exponents it looks like pretty decent kickboxing with awesome takedowns, but yer I know what you mean the comment is a bit general. I was thinking more in lines of TCMA not the sporting ones they shouldn't look anything like kickboxing let alone bad kickboxing. Anyway when you go look at some provide some details. Good luck with it.
