Kung fu Game Plans

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Renegade80, Oct 26, 2015.

  1. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    Fighter's often talk about strategy: the plan that they intend to enact in the ring to defeat the opponent.

    What game plans are taught, or have you been able to derive from your Kung fu style?
     
  2. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    From the wing chun kuen kuit: The application of techniques will vary according to the opponent

    So in short the goal is to develop the flexibility to adapt on the fly and respond dynamically. I can develop plans ahead of time for common self defense situations but I have to be able to adapt to what's thrown at me and how the opponent fights and that will change the techniques I use and how I pursue them. It's a lot hard to give a "if they do this then I do this" type description.

    The most I could say of wing chun tactics without going into a ton of detail is that you're almost always moving forward or angling off to move forward. Only occasionally do you back up at all and even then only while angling off. The goal is to hit the opponent and if they create a bridge to neutralize it so you can hit. Depending on the situation the level of force and techniques will change and it can run the gamut from striking, to throws, to joint locks.
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Hit them really hard before they know they are actually in a fight
     
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Try to obtain a full clinch, disable your opponent's striking ability, and change a striking game into a grappling game ASAP.

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    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Why don’t you start the conversation by telling us what you have discovered via your training
     
  6. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I have mentioned this in the forum before and this has stuck with me.

    Baby Shroom: Dad, how do I use kungfu in a fight?

    Papa Shroom: Son, you punch him in the nose really hard, then kick him in the groin. When he's on the ground, you stomp on the rib. Then you run.

    Baby Shroom: Is that kungfu?

    Papa Shroom: Yes, Son. Now go do your homework. (smack Baby Shroom behind the head)
     
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    1: don't get hit
    2: get in a position where you can do stuff to them but they can't do stuff to you
    3: hit/throw them REALLY hard.
     
  8. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Hey brother I'll keep it short and sweet because I'm knee deep in paper writing right now and my opportunities to browse and post on the web are short too.

    If we take all "kung fu" martial styles and goals there are really just two categories they tend to fall into, based on what I've trained and read up on: slicing an enemy to ribbons with weapons, or empty handed 'boxing' of diverse arrangement. In the Chinese martial pantheon there exist arts based on war, philosophy, and religion, and these have had many centuries to blend and mix creating a relative "mess" of styles, apparent in the myriad complexity of names, lineages, et cetera. But to keep it simple the "game plan" is to spend time on perfecting skills related to the previous two major areas (slicing, beating). I'd be forced to argue that the more refined sensibilities of "kungfu" (philosophy, religious, pacifistic teachings) are a very recent phenomenon (and the outcome of many hundred years of development and combining war fighting styles with cultural advance). That 'gung fu game plan' is self-improvement in any form, so it's less martial and more universal, in a manner of speaking.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  9. butcher wing

    butcher wing Oi, Fatso!

    Hit them really hard and hit them a lot. Simples ;-)
     
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Kung Fu Game Plans

    Here are more Kung Fu game plans:

    - Get both of your opponent's legs if you can, otherwise get one of his legs first and get his other leg afterward.
    - Move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path and lead him into the emptiness.
    - If you punch at me, I'll run you down. If you kick at me, I'll run you down. If you do nothing, I'll still run you down.
    - If you want to throw your opponent backward, pull him first. If you want to throw your opponent forward, push him first.
    - In striking art, you want "head on collision". In throwing art, you want "rear end collision".
    - When you get your opponent's head, his body will follow.
    - If you can bend your opponent's spine or knee joint sideway, you have taken all his defense and counters away.
    - 1 is better than 1,2 and 1,2 is better than 1,2,3.
    - Kick low than punch high. Attack left than attack right.
    - Force a striker to play grappling game. Force a grappler to play striking game.
    - Pretend you are nervous, avoid eyes contact, shake your body, pee in your pants if you can. You suddenly jump in and eat your opponent alive.
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  11. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    First off, thanks for the responses. It's interesting that the trend here is towards a "just hit em" mentality. Is that because those that feel so believe game plans are purely for the realm of rule based sports and not MA?

    Because then there would have been the risk that you discuss the things I've learned rather than expounding on the thread topic. But since you've shown such keen interest:

    My time in MA has been split between three arts mostly.

    Shotokan (non "traditional") - We learned to take angles when receiving heavy attacks and to try to press forward against anything else; to drive through with powerful counter strikes and joint lock anything that is either causing an obstruction or that has been left unattended.

    Chung do Kwan Taekwondo - Evade and counter: Keep out of range and kick anything that moves into range, straight energy for intercepting, round for exchanges and clinch with anything that gets too close

    Southern Tiger-Crane kung fu - keep square to the opponent, drive forward and work in close, use the waist and hands to deflect and generate power; forces coming at you are turned aside, angles are taken to support attacking. If their defence is good move to penetrating and disrupting structure before finishing shots.
     
  12. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

  13. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    Seems I was right. Posting my own experience did nothing to spur the conversation, even from those who requested it.
     
  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    The problem with the question is most of the arts have a similar way of attacking and thinking, its not rocket science, for example
    Enemy not come I not go, enemy moves I move first (so you don’t start fights, but you initiate the final outcome) this I have heard in tai chi, both the hakka arts I have trained in and was a central tenant of my first art Lau Gar
    The second problem is allot of the theories for the arts are contained in poems etc which are generally not taught to those outside the art.
    For me personally I have picked up the following from the arts I have studied
    Thing I picked up in lau gar
    Cover your centre, protect it and attack their centre.
    there are three bridges1) hand,2) mid forearm and 3) elbow, you never let your opponent control or get past the third bridge, your aim is to get past it and destroy him
    hit in threes (so hit in combinations)
    Once the hand moves it does not come back until the fight is over, so hit keep hitting and don’t withdraw your hand

    Hung gar
    Generate power two ways, locking the lats in and using tension in the upper body to generate hard short range power connected to closed short stance and hips (old frame hung gar, not to dissimilar to wing chun in appearance if different in execution) and whole body loose power generated by body momentum and hip rotation (newer white crane influenced hung gar)
    Control their balance, attack the lower and upper gates together, use your legs (feet knees and stance) to disrupt their balance as you hit them,
    pin their arms (allot of my hung gar close in is about dominating their centre and arms with hard powerful arms) , control their head (which to me means basic clinching) get access to the centreline and destroy them.
    use the whole body, so attack with arms, legs head, shoulders forearms etc
    I see hung gar as a close range clinch art as well as a long range striking art allot of pinning their arms as you hit them
    Longer range, use both angling footwork and sweeping strikes to go around over under their guard
    Throw in combinations the first strike is often to destroy their guard as the actual hits come from the second third and 4th strike




    Clf
    Commit to the attack and keep hitting until they go down, so very aggressive once you make contact you keep going until you have run them
    Long range strikes generated by whole body power and footwork, you crash through the target knocking everything out of the way in order to hit the target, footwork is more liner than hung at least at the start and more of a running horse stance. Same principles again, the first strike is normally to destroy the guard and then you move into and through him, very aggressive attacks generated by a torque at the hips
    If you retreat its to create space in order to generate momentum to drop them
    Again allot of the combinations are thrown in threes
    What goes up must come down, what goes down must go up, so lots of circular strikes either knocking their guard down or their up hands up them hitting
    Close in again pin their arms to the centre and hit, or clear it to the outside and control the centre and hit
    The whole arm is the weapon, so hand, forearm, elbow or shoulder can all hit on the same strike depending on the distance
    CLF also has a lot of throws and takedowns form me, so the principles I take home are at range hit them hard and fast, get in close to finish them if you have to with close range strikes or a throw

    I could go on about the hakka arts I have also studied

    But probably the best principle I have every heard through all my training is
    use what works for you, if theres something better take it as yours, and learn to hit very very hard
     
  15. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    I'm not really sure why you view that as a problem with the question. There are bound to be similarities between arts, but it strikes me that rare or not there should also be differences. Whether similar or different the answer can.be a.useful starting point for comparison.

    Thanks for the descriptions you did give. Though similar they do appear distinct from one another. Is the old hung gar something to do with the iron wire training?
    I'd be very interested in descriptions of the hakka styles as I think that the Tiger-Crane I learned had hakka routes but it's not something I know much aboutility.

    I see that as more of a principle of training than a principle of fighting. It sounds like a good idea but it doesn't factor in the hard work that it.takes to properly learn and understand how to apply a martial skill or tactic.

    I see this topic of system strategy as being a defence against the potential jumble you can end up with by just taking what works. It all works if you train it enough, but if it doesn't fit the strategy that works for you, then you can safely let it go and lose nothing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When one guy uses straight punch such as jab and cross while another guy use left and right haymaker (or hook), who will have more advantage? One thing for sure is, the haymaker (or hook) can be used to knock down the jab and cross but not the other way around.

    Some systems use the opposite strategy. For example, a

    1. WC guy likes to protect his center from inside out.
    2. CLF guy likes to protect his center from outside in.

    When a WC guy use chain punches to attack a CLF guy, the CLF guy can attack the WC guy from both sides with "haymaker (or hook punch)". Since a 45 degree downward "haymaker" can be used to knock down almost any straight punch such as jab and cross. This make the 2nd approach has more advantage over the 1st approach unless some enhancement can be added into the 1st approach. By combining both arms, that issue can be solved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  17. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Not so actually. There is angled straight striking in Biu Jee which comes from off center back to the centerline.
     
  18. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Care to elaborate further? Can we have a clip an a time spot please? :' )

    LFD
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Angled or not, as long as it's straight punch, A 45 degree downward haymaker can change the direction of that straight punch.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz-_odTzDvA&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz-_odTzDvA&feature=youtu.be[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    A little hard to see on here but...

    00:02 At the start of the form before the "finger wagging"
    01:10 Cutting back into centreline from farthest reach off of a mun sao
    01:37 Same cut back to centreline from a mun sao

    These mechanics can be used for strikes which are not simply down the centreline. Most people use them to recover to center but they can also be used to dominate people who have weak or slow defense to the outer gate.


    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gls02U_t2Y"]Moy Yat - Biu Je - YouTube[/ame]
     

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