Kuk Sool Won v.s. Hwa Rang Do

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Hyeongsa, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member

    Dr He Young Kimm´s history of hapkido book talks a little about the split between these two men. I don´t have the book in front of me so pardon me if I paraphraze incorrectly. IHS appointed a person other than JBL to be headmaster of the Seoul area. This ****ed JBL off and he left. Shortly after, the guy IHS appointed left as well.

    Dr Kimm performed many interviews with all of the players of that time. He also does not have a stake in who of these two men is on top. I think he told it as the best as he could figure out.
     
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Rudy.... and I wholeheartedly agree. "History is written by the winners", which is why will probably never hear about what sort of elite corps the Paekshe and Koguryo kingdoms had, and why only the name of the HWARANG of SILLA kingdom survives.

    All the same, there is much to be said for pushing back the veil of time on what we know about Korean martial traditions. Where I have changed my own approach is in the amount of garbage one might reasonably be expected to endure. You may be familiar with the most recent "tete-a-tete" with Dr and Mrs Choi, as I likewise recall the amount of grief you endured a couple of years back on another forum. Who needs it?

    OTOH it still serves to be out where people can ask questions and folks can exchange information. The October event is still on the horizon so there is a good chance of being able to meet and greet folks there. I'm looking forward to it.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Personally, i'd love to hear the take on KSW and HRD. are they legit? are they down to the roots korean (more than 70% that is lol)

    And personally I am beginning to think this is some sort of gag. Perhaps you should tell me what you are calling "legit". Do you mean, "do they exist?" The answer is "yes". Do you mean are they related to what the HWARANG of the Three Kingdoms period practiced, the answer is "no". Point of fact we don't KNOW what the HWARANG practiced. In fact we are unsure of what the actual function of the group was.

    in the end, all three (china, korea, japan) influenced each other. but each had its own distinct principles/styles. so, is the Sillan Hwa Rang, and Korea in general, the focal point of Martial Arts as we know it?

    Point of fact we don't KNOW what the HWARANG practiced. In fact we are unsure of what the actual function of the group was.


    from what i've researched, it seems the Hwa Rang influenced todays wushu, karate, jui jitsu, and the samurai in general (due to major Hwa Rang noble man/families leaving Korea and teaching in China and Japan; i.e., Shira Soborou of Japan and Wang Kimm of China). though, it also seems during the slaughter of the Shaolin Monks, ALOT of information was traded with the Korean monks of the north, which trickled south to Silla.

    Excuse me but where did you get this stuff? Do you have sources? I'd like to hear your sources for HWA RANG teaching in China and Japan. And who was it that resolved that "during the slaughter of the Shaolin Monks, ALOT of information was traded with the Korean monks of the north, which trickled south to Silla."

    the Samurai gained alot of sword, armor, martial, and moral knowledge (i.e., Bushido) from the Sillan Hwa Rang, but stream lined and perfected the sword (and a SMALL amount of other weapons) to make it distinctly their own, while the Hwa Rang seemed to perfect everything (i.e., 108 weapons, punching, kicking, grappling, horseback, poetry, music, polotics, swiming, etc.) they also seemed to have gotten the Kwahn Sool (hard techniques) from Shira Soborou and turned it into Karate (though that can be debated since it seems that Okinawa had develped a FORM of Karate from China, which iin turn got it from Korea from the Wang Kimm) and also recieved the You Sool (soft techniques) and developed Jui Jitsu and Judo further, with their own flairs on both of course.

    I can't believe what you are writing. What are your sources? Who told you this stuff? Do you understand that there is NO debate about where Karate came from since most of us were around while FUNAKOSHI Gichin was still alive. Do you actually KNOW the history of Karate as it proceeds from Okinawa-Te?

    so, is what we study, KSW and/or HRD, the direct decendent of what the Hwa Rang of the Sillan kingdom taught to China/Japan? are we studying the actual "syllabus" (i use that term lightly since they didn't have one) of so long ago? or is it made up bull**** that would appease the masses by telling them its "traditional Korean martial arts? i see similiarites in the sip palgae, MYDBTJ, KSW, HRD, and the lot. i know TKD and Judo were heavily influenced by Japan. but what about what we DON'T know???

    so far, i've seen the forms (THANK YOU UNKNOWN KJN!!! ;D) and am franticaly comparing it to the higher ranking forms in KSW, SPG, and the MYDBTJ. they all seem to have the same elements, but it will take time and training to understand it.
    but the bitterness question between Kuk Sa Nim and Do Ja Nim remains: what the hell happened for such animosity to develp between two killers and masters of martial arts???
    and the historical question still must be discussed till someones brain pops. lol

    lets drop this argument and continue on with the revelations that this thread has slowly begun revealing, shall we?

    I have no problem with that except that you are asking for a complete treatise on the evolution of Korean martial traditoins and I don't get the impression that you have developed even a passing familiarity with the major personalities and events which shaped this epoch. May I ask how much work you are doing for yourself?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned


    Mmmmm....maybe some perspective would help as well. Lets not discount the fact that Kimm and Suh were compadres at one time. Suh "invited" Kimm to leave the KSW organization to follow his own star. Looking at the HANMUDO stuff its safe to say that Kimm stayed close to the KSW trunk.

    There is also the fact that Kimm would like to go down as the "voice" of Korean martial arts history as well as a highly ranked member of an organization. To that end he is influential with the TKD TIMES and heavily skews his own role in the history he wrote to always come up smelling sweet. As representative of the KIDOHAE outside of Korea, Kimm has done a fine job of keeping a low profile and pressing his own agenda.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  5. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member

    I agree the Dr Kimm likes to inflate himself in his writings, but I don´t think that is relevent here.

    I don´t believe that Kimm is trying to present IHS in a favourable light. I think he is telling it as he percieves it. I doubt if IHS is too happy with this book, because it runs counter to his own writings, this is just a guess on my part though.

    If you are suggesting that Dr Kimm agrandizes IHS in some way to increase his own standing, I don´t agree with that.
     
  6. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I'm going to assume by your use of quotation marks, that you view that as the gospel according to He-Young. ;)

    It's certainly an embellishment IMO, as I think that Dr. Kimm simply left the WKSA (without any invitation to "pursue his own path") once he realized that IHS wasn't always going to follow his advice. Their relationship did end on a more cordial note than that of JBL & IHS, but with pretty much the same outcome (i.e. not communicating or keeping in touch with one another). So again, bad feelings and alienation of "sister arts" prevents the practitioners of these KMA from benefitting from what could have been a very fruitful partnership (IMVHO).
     
  7. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    BRUCE: when it comes to the Hwa Rang, we do (supposedly) know what the purpose was: an elite corp of noble warriors that helped unify all of Korea. the samguk segi is one of the oldest Korean historical texts, and mentions the Hwa Rang Segi (annals of hwarang; didn’t survive past the 12th century), and even has stories about the hwa rang. Though the hwa rang are still somewhat shrouded in mystery, we do know that the hwa rang were heirs to generations of accumulated combat, fighting, and leaderships skills from the Ko Chosun period. We even know their ranking system! Kukson – High Level Hwa Rang General that was representative of Silla Kingdom. Hwa Rang – battlefield leaders and lieutenents under the Kukson and the King. Taught their personel armies for the Kingdom. Rang Do – foot soldiers assigned to Hwa Rang. Each hwa rang was responsible for teaching his troops and served as master instructor. THIS is known by countless historical and modern texts, as I will mention later.

    what i mean by legit? are we studying what they were studying when it comes to the weaponry, philosophy, hand to hand combat, etc. it seems that the supposed martial art of the Hwa Rang (Um Yang Kwon, according to JBL, KSN, and many Korean texts) survived up until today. many hwa rang monks left for the mountains of Northern Korea (such as Su Ahm Dosa, JBLs teacher), and other people, like KSN grandfather Royal Court Master Instructor Myung Duk Suh (which was a Hwa Rang since he was responsible teaching his troops, as i mentioned before), were keys to the old ways of training. my references? Hwa Rang Do's timeline history and book collection, Suh In Hyuks personel account of things and his book collection, and history books out of Korea explaining the rise and fall of the dynasties, the Samguk Sagi (chronicles of the three kingdoms), and other famous historical texts. not everything is lost Bruce. You just have to have a master to talk to that actually has first hand account of these arts, and not rely on self exploration. You can only go so far that way.

    when it comes to Japan learning the Korean arts, the Daito Ryu JuJutsu system that Choi Yong Sool studied IS Korean. Shira Soborou, who's name can be found at the beginning of their records since he founded it, was Korean. Shinra, the Japanese word for Silla, and Soborou, the Japanese word for third noble, basically translates into "Sillan Nobleman". now, why would he be there??? by 935, Silla had fallen to disarray and corruption. too much squabbling for power and assanation plots for power. some of the Sillan families fled to Japan after the fall of the Sillan kingdom. THAT is one of the families.

    when it comes to Wang Kimm, he was one, just ONE, of the families that left for China during this same time period. he taught hand to hand combat to the royal court during that time period. now, during the slaughter of the Shaolin Monks (which any martial arts historian knows about, and hell, even movie fans) many of them traveled to Korea since it was close. the Korean monks, as a historical fact, took them in and trained WITH them. thus, alot of information was traded.

    lmao i didn't explain myself very clearly on the karate/tkd issue, and for that i'm sorry. the kicking drills and what not came from Korea, but the forms came strictly from japan and were molded after that. THAT i do know lol sorry about the confusion. however, if you look at the dates when Okinawa first began studying karate was after trade relationships were established with the Ming dynasty of China by King Satto of Chūzan in 1372, some forms of Chinese martial arts were introduced to the Ryukyu Islands by the visitors from China, particularly Fujian Province. A large group of Chinese families moved to Okinawa around 1392 for the purpose of cultural exchange, where they established the community of Kumemura and shared their knowledge of a wide variety of Chinese arts and sciences, including the Chinese martial arts. by this point, the Chinese had already been heavily influenced by the Korean families that left for their shores (57 bc - 392 A.D.) so, if you want to argue to the last bit and through technicalities, it seems that Korea is heavily responsible for it, don’t' you think?

    during the war with Japan (1940’s), many more Hwa Rang fled to the mountains. you hear stories (such as JBL or KSN) going to the mountains and coming out martial masters. thats not strange to think since there were/are warrior monks still training...still teaching. the arts didn't die, Bruce. they changed hands so many times that in the end, their name was lost or they adapted to modern times. but the art is still the same: um yang kwon, hwa rang do, kuk sool won....its all from the Hwa Rang warriors. their name, Hwa Rang, even changed! Kukson Do (National Immortal Corp) and later the P'ungwoldo (Wind-Moon Corp). the labels changed, but it remained intact all the way up to and through the Koryo dynasty.

    why would all this be a gag? if someone’s info doesn't compare correctly to yours, that doesn't mean its a gag. i have studied by myself many Korean texts, hand books, history books, and so on. But in the end, you need to also have information passed down to you from those that are at the source. now, i might be misinformed, but that’s your job to correct me…politely…if there’s something that’s not right. at this point (and with that post) you prove Demdike and Pugil both correct in being condescending. i respect you, your wealth of knowledge, and your dedication, but man ease up!
     
  8. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Ho hum! I don't want to take any credit where credit isn't due Bruce, as I certainly wasn't trying to be in any way clever (*see you comment below anyway).

    As for your point of me hiding behind a pen name: I reminded you of my real name Bruce, yet you chose, and still choose, to ignore that fact. In any case, many fine writers throughout history wrote, and continue to write, under nom de plumes. Even famous martial artists, like Gichin Funakoshi (for example) wrote under a 'pen-name'. His was 'Shoto' you may recall! I also have several video's openly posted on YouTube, so I am fully aware of environments that "...can be toxic and judgmental."

    And as for wanting any information from you that you might deem to share with such low-life as Demdike and me... You're joking, surely?

    What gives you the right to call someone on a public forum a 'ditz' (scatterbrained person) Bruce?

    If you look back through the posts you'll see that I haven't really said much that directly relates to the topic of the thread simply because I have little that I can add. I've done years and years of research on all sorts of topics, but little on the Kuk Sool Won v.s. Hwa Rang Do issue as I don't believe it possible to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    "I submit that you have both been spoiled by people---admittedly such as myself---" Bloody hell, you think a heck of a lot about yourself! And as for your condescending and holier-than-thou attitude, along with your personal insults, when you don't even know me... You wanna be rude to me? Then go ahead, but I certainly won't stoop to your level unless or until I'm face-to-face with you! Keyboard warriors are two-a-penny. But you can take this on board anyway: Take your so-called knowledge and information and shove it where the Sun don't shine! Your Elephant and Castle!

    You have form, when it comes to haranguing (perhaps that should be spelt hwaranging!) people online. For anyone interested, click on this thread started by J.B. Murphy a while back: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73247
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2009
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    ROFL
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Hi, Pugil:

    For my part I would like to suggest something and this comes from the selection of phrases you have used and the items you have targeted as taking exception to.

    At one time, when I did Customer Service training I would often get referrals from people who were having problems relating to customers, usually on the phone or by mail, but sometimes in person. One of the tools I used was what I called an "Internal Voice Exercise".

    In this exercise, I gave each person a rather neutral complaint letter or request letter and asked each person to describe the person who wrote the letter. Usually the people who had been referred to me would characterize the author as "snide", "condescending", "angry", "argumentive" or "domineering". Please note that each of the letters was substanitvely the same. What was different was the "internal voice" with which each person read the letter.

    Each of us reads or hears a voice through a filter. When you read my words you don't "hear" the same voice with which I write. As I write this e-mail I hear my voice to be matter-of-fact, cordial and informative. Unless I miss my guess the "voice" you hear "speaking to you" through my words is arrogant, condescending and dismissive.

    Here is what I propose. Please take the email of your choice that I have authored and reframe it to be coming from any three people you know. For variety I suggest a teacher, a parent and a best friend. I submit that you will here something very different than what you are currently reporting.

    I don't write toxic e-mails. All I do is report news and make contributions. If there is some special characterization that you are hearing, I honestly don't think its coming from this end. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    "....I'm going to assume by your use of quotation marks, that you view that as the gospel according to He-Young. ....."

    Actually, my hope was to make clear that I was reflecting the tone of Dr. Kimm's writing and not my own judgment of the situation. To me it is clear that there is not a little "spin" in what Dr. Kimm writes, independent of his resources and citations. Nothing more than that was intended.

    Just as an aside, I really DO agree with you, though. In fact I will go so far as to say that the KMA has suffered enormously from the divisiveness and incessant splitting among players. IMHO had the Koreans put their heads together and examined past traditions in any sort of depth they would have uncovered a treasure-trove of information and traditions. Instead, I think they took the "easy" way and simply borrowed from the Japanese, relabeled the material and then worked like Hell to make history fit the result. Of course, thats just me. YMMV. :)

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    It’s not all that important to me whether you accept what I am about to share. I will say, however, that it seems that you have been following quite a bit of “oral tradition” and have not done a lot of your own research. Please consider what I am about to share.

    When it comes to the Hwa Rang, we do (supposedly) know what the purpose was: an elite corps of noble warriors that helped unify all of Korea.

    No, we don’t KNOW that. Some people suggest that could be the case. Others have gone so far as to suggest a homosexual cult of effete court members. At this later date we cannot know.


    The SAMKUK SEGI is one of the oldest Korean historical texts, and mentions the Hwa Rang SEGI (annals of HwaRang; didn’t survive past the 12th century), and even has stories about the Hwa rang.

    No, the SAMKUK SEGI is NOT a historical document. It is a collection of myths and legends which sought to re-coup the heritage and history lost by the Mongol Invasion (1271-1392). Among the historical “facts” is the idea that the KORYO dynasty lasted until the Choson Dynasty started in 1392. Fact is that the remnants of the Korean administration existed on an island (see: KANGHWA Island; 1332ad) for 30 years before submitting to the Mongols. The last hold-out of authentic KORYO warriors were slaughtered in protracted fight-and-run pursuit ending in the Battle (?) of Cheju Island (1273) (see: “SAMBYOLCHO” aka “Three Elite Patrols)”

    Though the Hwa rang are still somewhat shrouded in mystery, we do know that the Hwa rang were heirs to generations of accumulated combat, fighting, and leaderships skills from the Ko Choson period. We even know their ranking system! Kukson – High Level Hwa Rang General that was representative of Silla Kingdom. Hwa Rang – battlefield leaders and lieutenants under the Kukson and the King. Taught their personal armies for the Kingdom. Rang Do – foot soldiers assigned to Hwa Rang. Each Hwa rang was responsible for teaching his troops and served as master instructor. THIS is known by countless historical and modern texts, as I will mention later.

    You keep saying that this is “known” which, if it were indeed factual information there need be no debate. There was a ranking system. That part is true. We do NOT know that it applied to the HWARANG, and do not know that it meant the same thing as intended for the standing army if it did! There is no court documentation so people are free to make anything of this material that they care. But, believing it does not make it historical fact. We have only myth and legend to go on. For instance, in the case of WON GUANG BOPSA, we have the HAEDONG KOSUNG CHUN which reports his construction of the “Five Tenets” and his services to the King in various situations. Not one word about running an organization of elite youths. Want to tell me how they missed that? Or how about the various academies and scholarly groups beginning with the National Academy under TAE-JO. How come they remembered to note this and other institutions and left out a group that, according to folklore, had managed to survive, unbroken from the 6th century. Huh?

    What i mean by legit? are we studying what they were studying when it comes to the weaponry, philosophy, hand to hand combat, etc. it seems that the supposed martial art of the Hwa Rang (Um Yang Kwon, according to JBL, KSN, and many Korean texts) survived up until today. many Hwa rang monks left for the mountains of Northern Korea (such as Su Ahm Dosa, JBLs teacher)

    There is NO historical documentation to support this. The closest that comes to this are the records of the CHOSON Dynasty and the Chinese Support Troops who fought the TONG HAK rebels in 1894. Some remnants of these rebel forces did recede into the mountains to form enclaves of Neo-Confucian culture. That’s about as close as you come. At a later date, UBIYONG (guerilla forces of Korean nationals) fought a series of actions against Japanese security forces and retreated into Manchuria to fight a serried of guerilla actions against the KANTO Army in that area. One of the salient leaders of that time was the father of the present head of NK who sought to unify the Koreas under a Communist regime precipitating the Korean War (1950-1953)


    , and other people, like KSN grandfather Royal Court Master Instructor Myung Duk Suh (which was a Hwa Rang since he was responsible teaching his troops, as i mentioned before), were keys to the old ways of training. my references?

    There is no documentation to support that SUH In Hyuk’s grandfather was, in fact, a hand-to-hand combat instructor. It is plain that he had some role with the army as he returned to his village in 1907 when the Korean Army was dissolved. However, based on various dates and ages given, SUH’s grandfather could have been as young as 17 and as old as 21 at the time of his enlistment. There is no mention of his participating in the TONG HAK Rebellion (1894), the Sino-Japanese War (1894), The murder of Queen Min, the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905) or any mention of a dozen or so people, places and things that anyone exposed to the court at that time would have every right to know. Further, there is no veracity of the notebooks---if they exist--- were written by Suh’s grandfather.


    Hwa Rang Do's timeline history and book collection, Suh In Hyuks personal account of things and his book collection, and history books out of Korea explaining the rise and fall of the dynasties, the SAMKUK SEGI (chronicles of the three kingdoms), and other famous historical texts. not everything is lost Bruce. You just have to have a master to talk to that actually has first hand account of these arts, and not rely on self exploration. You can only go so far that way.

    No wonder your history is so messed-up!! Do you honestly think that SUH In Hyuk OR LEE Joo Bang are giving you historical fact? There are easily dozens of events and personalities that were pivotal to Korean culture, administration and the nature of the court that are NEVER MENTIONED by either of these gentlemen. Would you like even a SMALL list?

    when it comes to Japan learning the Korean arts, the Daito Ryu JuJutsu system that Choi Yong Sool studied IS Korean. Shira Soborou, whose name can be found at the beginning of their records since he founded it, was Korean. Shinra, the Japanese word for Silla, and Soborou, the Japanese word for third noble, basically translates into "Sillan Nobleman". now, why would he be there??? by 935, Silla had fallen to disarray and corruption. too much squabbling for power and assassination plots for power. some of the Sillan families fled to Japan after the fall of the Sillan kingdom. THAT is one of the families.

    Please give me the historical citation for this. Yes, I know, it’s a very popular story. What I am asking for is historical FACT. There should be mention of this in the YAMAMOTO records, right? Please give me a citation. In return I can tell you that the DAITO RYU that CHOI was exposed to did not exist prior to 1918 when TAKEDA Sokaku named it DAITO RYU (see: Pranin). Takeda was exposed to SUMO, that is, "yawara", or Japanese wrestling and he studied Japanese fencing. Thats historical fact and there are plenty of resources to support it in case you want some reading material to bone-up on.

    when it comes to Wang Kimm, he was one, just ONE, of the families that left for China during this same time period. he taught hand to hand combat to the royal court during that time period. now, during the slaughter of the Shaolin Monks (which any martial arts historian knows about, and hell, even movie fans) many of them traveled to Korea since it was close. the Korean monks, as a historical fact, took them in and trained WITH them. thus, a lot of information was traded.

    Please tell me where this is cited. If there was a slaughter and an influx of émigrés there should be records. Where are they? WHO was taught? What were they taught? Even the Buddhist temples of China and Korea can’t give this information and THEY were they people involved. Please tell me who you are citing that knows more than the involved actors.

    lmao i didn't explain myself very clearly on the karate/tkd issue, and for that I’m sorry. the kicking drills and what not came from Korea, but the forms came strictly from Japan and were molded after that. THAT i do know lol sorry about the confusion. however, if you look at the dates when Okinawa first began studying karate was after trade relationships were established with the Ming dynasty of China by King Satto of Chūzan in 1372, some forms of Chinese martial arts were introduced to the Ryukyu Islands by the visitors from China, particularly Fujian Province. A large group of Chinese families moved to Okinawa around 1392 for the purpose of cultural exchange, where they established the community of Kumemura and shared their knowledge of a wide variety of Chinese arts and sciences, including the Chinese martial arts. by this point, the Chinese had already been heavily influenced by the Korean families that left for their shores (57 bc - 392 A.D.) so, if you want to argue to the last bit and through technicalities, it seems that Korea is heavily responsible for it, don’t' you think?

    I’m sorry to tell you this but the Veritable Records of the Ming say nothing about this and they were pretty passionate about good record-keeping. There is certainly the embassy to the Ryukyu Islands in 1392 known as “the 32 Families” but there is no clear picture of what was shared and what has survived to this day from that event. Even the three single oldest forms practiced in OKINAWA-TE (see: KUSHAN-KU, SEISAN, SANCHIN) are not to have existed before the 18th century.
    Furthermore, there is no record of the sort of kicking we associate with KMA these days. The closest that we have are references to a popular kicking sport in which a feathered shuttlecock is kept in the air. In 1567 General QI JI-GUANG (1523-1587) scoured the range of Chinese martial arts for effective fighting techniques and came up with 32 methods, 28 of which were “borrowed” from the Chinese LONG FIST tradition. Don’t you think that if there was ANYTHING of martial worth in the way of kicking or Korean practices that the General would have mentioned it? However, what we DO know is that in 1592 when the Korean peninsula was invaded by the Japanese, the Korean army was a sorry mess and the Koreans had to fall back on General Qi-s training manual to field an army. Yes, there was some influence but documentation supports it going from China to Korea and not the other way around.


    During the war with Japan (1940’s), many more Hwa Rang fled to the mountains. you hear stories (such as JBL or KSN) going to the mountains and coming out martial masters. that’s not strange to think since there were/are warrior monks still training...still teaching. the arts didn't die, Bruce. they changed hands so many times that in the end, their name was lost or they adapted to modern times. but the art is still the same: um yang kwon, Hwa rang do, Kuk Sool Won....its all from the Hwa Rang warriors. their name, Hwa Rang, even changed! Kukson Do (National Immortal Corp) and later the P'ungwoldo (Wind-Moon Corp). the labels changed, but it remained intact all the way up to and through the KORYO dynasty.

    Once again, I am sorry to inform you that everything in this paragraph is an unsubstantiated twisting of other peoples suppositions of what MIGHT have happened were this true. Unfortunately there simply is no fact involved here.


    why would all this be a gag? if someone’s info doesn't compare correctly to yours, that doesn't mean its a gag. i have studied by myself many Korean texts, hand books, history books, and so on. But in the end, you need to also have information passed down to you from those that are at the source. now, i might be misinformed, but that’s your job to correct me…politely…if there’s something that’s not right. at this point (and with that post) you prove Demdike and Pugil both correct in being condescending. i respect you, your wealth of knowledge, and your dedication, but man ease up!

    I mention this being a gag, because I have seen each and every one of these stories debunked many, many times over the years and I find it being brought up, yet again, just like the old story about TKD being used to break horse legs in battle. I have no power to make people want to stop believe these fables and start accepting KMA traditions for what they really are. The fact is that Korean DO have practices and traditions of their own, but those practices and traditions are far less glamorous and romantic and it takes guts to accept them for what they are instead of what you would like them to be. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2009
  13. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    that truly is an interesting take on everything. but, you have a way of debating without answering a damn thing. what about your own citations? where did YOU get your information? you argue and supposedly "debunk" without actually giving facts back. an answer without an answer. saying "we dont' know" and "where was it recorded?" isn't debunking the facts i laid out! listing a couple of dates is alright, but i have yet to hear a single book name or source.

    i listed citations: KSN: his personel book collection (the five books passed down to him from his grandfather) AND the historically accurate (certified by the korean government) hand books AND master harmons personel book of korean history. same goes for JBL and his collection. both of their histories go hand in hand perfectly, dates, people, and all. and yes, BOTH JBL and KSN have listed people that helped them on their path to greatness. they even list Choi Yong Sool!!!

    when it comes to the historical texts (outside of the association and ancient texts) i got those from korea and translations of those books from korea. "No, the SAMKUK SEGI is NOT a historical document..." tell that to the korean historians...
    and when it comes to the word of mouth, yes i've heard many stories. some, i myself debunked. others though hold up true due to citations and facts. monks (in both china and korea) have passed down the same stories over and over again of how they ran to korea and stayed their! and yes, the hwa rang did flee to northern korea to escape and to china and japan. my citations? THE HISTORY BOOKS. notice i said bookS. multiple. any book worth anything has these facts in there. now all these books having the SAME facts, dates, times, etc...strange, dont' you think? and for someone so negative on "we dont' know", you should love this part: we don't know who shinra and kimm taught. all we know is they taught.

    and did you SERIOUSLY say that kicking wasn't a part of it?! hell, even the cherokee indians knew how to 'effing kick!! your going from "historicaly accurate" to "let me take this punk down". lol

    why are you so eager to debunk everything? i understand not accepting fiction (believe me, i feel pity for those that believe false stories because its "cooler"), but alot of these stories have true bases (just like a movie is "based on a true story": most of its true while some parts are embellished). we DO know (for at least 75%) that what i said is true. it matches (almost) every historically accurate book out there. so the moment you get your own citations (not just a couple of dates and names) is when i'll take the "debunking" of my historical interpetation of the books more serious. no offense.
     
  14. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    dont' take this the wrong way bruce! i've said this before: if i'm wrong i'd love to be pointed in the right direction. no matter what rank, you can always be a student. so if you got some books or whatever to head me to, then by all means, school me up! lol
     
  15. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    found a hwa rang do form (finally). not sure if this was already posted....if so...re-enjoy! lol

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3L4X8uUU74"]YouTube- Martial Arts Fest '94 - Hwa Rang Do Annual Event[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2009
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    There really isn't much more I can say.

    If you honestly believe that the oral statements of LEE Joo Bang and SUH In Hyuk are historically accurate then I would be willing to actually debate you on the matter. What I need to share is that this had been done to death several times on several forums over the years. When it is done I will tell you what you are going to say. Your response will be along the lines of "well, so what. Its what I want to believe. Whats the harm in that?" I mention this because this is exactly what I pointed-out in the first place. What I said was that people want to believe what they want to believe and the facts have little or nothing to do with it. Thank you for proving my premise.

    Now, lets go to your matter of my own citations. Have you seen those little parenthetical comments (IE. "see: xyz or abc")? I can footnote every comment I have made and usually provide those overly-simplified citations, but I can use either Chicago Form or AMA Form to give the full citations you are asking for. For instance, lets go to the comment about the monk, WON GUANG. You said he was instrumental in guiding the HWA RANG---but you gave no documentation. In return I questioned your comment and cited the HAEDONG KOSUNG CHON (see: LEE, Peter H. Sources of Korean Civilization; pgs 78-83; Columbia Press, 1993). Suppose you cite your own sources and I suggest that it be something more than "teacher says". LEE Joo Bang has already disqualified himself as a viable historian in his three part interview with BLACKBELT magazine. (Q: "So the system you inherited from SU-AHM-DOSA was not HWARANGDO." A:"That is right. I inherited the Hwarang combat system which was called UM-YANG KWON. Remember, HWARANGDO as a martial art name did not exist 2,000 years ago. I founded the name to identify this new martial art. It is possible that not all the HWARANG generals and RANGDO disciples practiced the same combat skills which proves that the only surviving lineage of the HWARANG warriors is from these UM-YANG combat skills...........") So....lets get started. You can begin anywhere you like but from now on the citations can't be hearsay. I think author, title, pgs and publisher should suffice unless you want to go deeper. Ready?

    BTW: I also think it may be a good time to introduce yourself by your given and family name. What do you think?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2009
  17. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    alright, let me say first that i thought you to be a kind and well spoken man. i see now your an arrogant snob. i want to believe the fairy tale? no. i agree that some of our motions come from chinese and japanese influences. but to believe the entire korean nations martial heritage is nothing but a hybrid of ONLY chinese and japanese martial arts is wishful thinking. the ancient korean martial arts DID survive and if you want to believe they didn't, then proclaim yourself a korean martial artists. you make yourself out to be a joke.

    and when it comes to calling hwa rang do by different names, guess what: they went with whats popular at the time but their syllabus never changed. it was basically putting "Karate for Kids" out on their door because it was easier to understand! you take stuff so literal that you lose your sight on things.

    lol i told everyone here that a few times that my name will come out one day. for now, you can call me John Doe as alot have (for some reason) come to call me or Hyeongsa which IS my nickname. if you got a problem with that, then i'm deeply sorry. but your just gonna have to wait like a child on the day before christmas. lol
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Sorry, "John", but I have been down this road at least three times before.

    Now. if you want to play with the "big boys" I suggest you start doing something more than publishing empty verbage. You might start by taking the interview that I cited earlier and explaining how things can be as you say when LEE JOO BANG, himself, says that they are not.

    Oh, and BTW: belief in the HWARANG is not the be all and end all of being a KMA. The single most embarrassing thing about this is that it is often the Koreans themselves who have a painfully simplistic understanding of their own history.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  19. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    "The single most embarrassing thing about this is that it is often the Koreans themselves who have a painfully simplistic understanding of their own history." an epic qoute, i have to say.

    i love it when a person has enough balls to tell the world they know more about another persons culture and history. did your books tell you about it all? its like saying you know it ALL about Russian, German, Indian, etc. culture becasue you "did your research". you'll never understand unless your PART of it. and my guess is you haven't been around alot of it.

    big boys, huh? it seems you can't keep an instructor and you never answer a question. i thought men answer questions and children excuse their actions. i wonder what thats all about.....

    it seems that i hit a nerve with my last statement. well, i'm not going to further your ignorance with anymore statements. if you have positive information to put into this thread and not THOUGHTS, then by all means feel free. but, i have bigger fish to fry: the alliance of anyone that gives a damn about keeping Kuk Sool as pure as possible. i'll see those people at the NKMAA meeting. till then.
     
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Either you speak English only as a second language or you are working to be purposely offensive. Read my post again.

    The statement is not whether I know MORE but the quality OF what the Koreans know and accept about their own culture.

    Anybody whoever was exposed to a culture and its history had to learn the facts. Being born to a culture doesw not always guarentee that one knows the perfect truth regarding that culture or its history. In the case of Americans it is still common to find Americans who believe that the American Revolution was about freedom and independence and not commerce and trade. In like manner it is still possible to find many Americans who believe that the Civil War was about "freeing the slaves" and that only Germany sought to practice Eugenics in the 20th Century.

    Getting back to your blatant Racism, the concept that one must be a member of a culture to truly understand it proceeds from the same xenophobic rhetoric one can find among any of the poorly educated. Exposure to the culture certainly enhances understanding, but need not always be requsite, at least on the level of discussion one finds here. OTOH, using such an arguement to discount a person's observations is a tidy way of excusing the fact that one's own understanding of the subject is limited. It has also been used repeatedly by the Koreans, Japanese and Chinese nationals as a way of fending off intimacy with other cultures so as to avoid being "tainted" by heterodoxy. (see: TONGHAK Movement). FWIW.

    BTW: You did not respond to the offer about correcting LEE Joo Bang about his own statements regarding HWARANGDO.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2010

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