Kuk Sool Won franchise

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tatar, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. trailblazer

    trailblazer Valued Member

    It's a new world. Koreans love protests. Especially candlelight protests. Google: 2008 Korean Candlelight Protest Against American Beef.

    All of Korea got behind the protestors for months last summer. Of course nothing came of it. Korea is the biggest importer of American Beef, but the protests were appreciated and supported...

    This seems a desperate and scared attempt to keep people from following their loyalty to their instructors as the grandmaster moves on.
  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Well said, Bruce. :cool:

    And something else you stated that needs to be emphasized:
    Fact is that the "association" as you call it is not actually an "association" but rather a rather large "sole proprietorship" regardless of what the papers represent it as.

    I'm afraid the "political action" you mention in your next sentence will be viewed by that sole proprietorship as MUTINY as the "personal injury" you intimated doesn't fit in as well when looking at the whole *rank hierarchy* thing. :rolleyes:

    And to davefly76: Just to set the record straight, the words KUK SOOL WON™ are trademarked in the US, just not federally. The logo is, and why it has the circled 'R' (®). The 'TM' in superscript designates that the trademark is obtained in each individual state and also needs to be renewed more often (I believe federally registered trademarks carry longer terms). The FDD only mentions that the words 'KUK SOOL WON' aren't federally registered (my emphasis), but omits the fact of which states DO carry individual trademark status. As I've said before, I'm no lawyer, but this is my understanding of the difference between the two types of trademarks. If a true copyright/trademark lawyer knows if what I stated to be wrong or in some way lacking, feel free to correct me.
  3. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member

    thank you for the explanation KJN :) :confused:
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  4. YearsOfHArdWork

    YearsOfHArdWork Valued Member

    I agree. It seems like there are so many groups of thought involved:

    1) People who may have signed it (probably without reading it.)
    2) People who are willing to sign it, however, under the belief that they can *trust* HQ to not double deal, rip them off, or double cross them.
    3) People who are willing to sign it with concessions, whether creating an equal agreement or a more favorable one.
    4) People who are waiting to see what happens, i.e. if it gets withdrawn.
    5) People who are fans of GM IHS, however, are torn emotionally between business and personal feelings.
    6) People with business based education that feel that this could have been designed better.
    7) People who are perplexed: believe that this is a conspiracy to take over. They have some valid point: the documents were sent Dec 10. They have until Jan 10 to sign the receipts or be pushed from Group A to Group C. As such, many of their 30 days are being eaten up by holidays and its hard to get info and responses from attorneys, accountants, and investors, during this time. Then they must agree to the agreement by Feb 10. All of this is being done before the instructors meeting Feb 20th. Why is this so? Is it so that the instructors won't be able to have a face to face discussion about this? Is it so that certain instructors can get concessions and others won't? So I think a conspiracy theory sorta rational in this case - to a degree.
    8) People who are just not going to flat out sign the agreement because it is not necessary.

    The thing I think that needs to happen is that someway is needed to be created so that HQ can "save face" and they can withdraw this proposal.

    I'm not saying that its wrong to get your "paperwork" house in order, however, it must be equitable, fare for all, and better designed for our organization - - - not a boilerplate manifestation of some attorney's computer software. I think the WKSA has some very intelligent people in the organization that would be willing to help - - - some of them for free or concessions.


    Reality check: Many school operators may trust GM IHS, but not HQ as an organization. They've made too many mistakes: taking to long to do simple tasks like processing paperwork, return phone calls, and return emails. The level of service is poor. I remember one of our students, who transferred from another school as a brown belt and was told that he to start over as a white belt because they couldn't find the paperwork. Later it was discovered that they did have the paperwork. We lost the student because the student had gotten discouraged and quit. That cost us, not them.

    :wow: Hire a third party staff to conduct the business, or make a committee. If your goal in this is to really make a first class organization :meditate:, go all the way - - - hire a third party staff. Because they'd be nothing but paperwork pushers, they'd never learn any martial art secrets, would not be biased against any school operator, and all school operators would respect them, be on time and accurate with paperwork and payments because they'd trust them.

    ***If anyone from HQ is reading this, help us design a way for you to save face, however, the proposed agreement really needs to be withdrawn and redesigned to something that really works with the design of our Association. We know that you are concerned about people "stealing" the art, the logos, the trademarks. But remember, happy people don't leave. Don't mix up training with business; don't mix up rank with business. I met some smart and talented people at the tournament and went to lunch with a few. I know you can't send out surveys and all that because that would not be proper, but get to know people - see what they do in their spare time. See what they do or did prior to or in addition to Kuk Sool. They can help. Teach us this much - - - HOW TO BE HUMBLE. Isn't that too a part of our martial arts training? ***
  5. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    Verbal and email so far. The owner of my school is no fool. He was bitten once in the past by the "verbal" agreement. It won't happen again. :)
  6. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    In particular... the ones located in Tomball, TX!!! Just create a grudge then wait for approval to promote to the next dahn.... :eek:
  7. karma

    karma Valued Member

    and everyone thought i was being fasicious about the supreme grandmaster, executive master, asst. executive master, head master, asst. head master, master, asst. master thing. i thought the same thing kidosool.
  8. trailblazer

    trailblazer Valued Member

    If you want people to take you seriously, start by learning how to spell the big words. You could also quit whining like a big sissy. In Hyuk Suh is a small guy, but he garners a lot of respect. Don't get all sensitive, and take it personally. It's just observation I find interesting, about big whiney types and tough little guys.
  9. karma

    karma Valued Member

    so sorry, did not realize i was in a spelling B, and as i have stated earlier, i am not the greatest typer there is as i hunt and peck keys. so if i miss a letter or two in a word, it happns. um, again trailblazer, exactly what would i be whining about? not following your thought plan here. as i said earlier, should you have a thought you should really run it by a friend or something to see how it sounds to avoid sounding like an idiot. are you saying it is whining that i was agreeing with kidosool that the wksa seems to be taking on the form of the hwarang do association? i mean come on man, with all the su suk kwan jang nim's and suhn im kwan jang nim's nims, and ji do kwan jang nim's and joo im kwan jang nim's, and pyung kwan jang nim,s.... you don't see the pattern? in hyuk suh garner's a lot of respect from whom? the wksa members? look on the franchise link, doesn't look that way to me. but you are right, gm suh is a hell of a martial artist, but his business practices seem to be lacking, and from what is being said, bordering on legality ( and if i did not spell that right you can express it in your next post). i had spent many years in the wksa, whether it swims or floats is not really important to me. i just hate to see some of my good friends that are some of wksa's higher echelon have to suffer after all the years of time, sweat, sacrifice, and faith they put into the organization. and i am sorry if you think i am a big whiney type, i ain't that big. could i be the average size whiney type? and i don't take it personally that the wksa is becoming mcdojo like. if they want to sacrifice the quality they once had for quantity, more power to them ( get those numbers up). let's face it, they do not have the quality masters to invoke power into their organization as they once did. so take it personally? pleaseee, again, it is just a shame to see a once powerful ,quality association taking such turns as it is taking now. truly,i hope it the best and wish all my friends great success. just for the record trailblazer, are you like a 17 year old that has a really rich daddy that buys his way out of everything? just curious, the things you write seem to support thta image. and ummmmm, trailblazer, taken seriously? ummmm ummm umm, i ain't the one hidin' behinde my bio. futhermore, you speak of my spelling, look at your last sentence. if you want to make a statement, learn how not to write a fragmented sentence, makes you sound like an idiot when you correct someone on their spelling and ya grammer is atrocious ( 'course i mighta misspelled that large word too).
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  10. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    AS far as the "Franchise" subject is concerned, I will speak to KSN personally to find out if any of this affects me. So far as I can see, the guy who started this thead is still offering no real proof. Send me an agreement which will apply to me, here in the UK and I will take it seriously.
    As for the WK SA losing "most" of their high ranking Masters (Really!) I cannot comment on any individual's reasons from leaving the association and will not speculate. I have trained with Marlin Sims and he is a great guy, however, he decided to leave and that is his choice. We all have different paths to travel and sometimes those paths separate. Does it really matter? However, what I would say is that in the UK not one of the Masters who have been promoted by Kuk Sa Nim have left the WKSA. I expect that one day some of them will. Why? Because we all change. Why do some people leave martial arts at white belt, blue belt 1st dahn or 5th dahn? Because they want to. Doe that make the WKSA a bad organization? NO. Does it worry me? No!
    And Karma, I really don't need you quoting a dictionary to me to tell me what "Karma" is! I hadn't even noticed your name, so No, I wasn't trying to tell you something, just using one of my favorite expressions like many others do on here. Though I am not sure that the writers of that dictionary would necessarily know what Karma is, but thats a whole different subject.
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    You folks probably know each other pretty well, so I have to trust that the nit-picking is casual "trash-talking among friends". For myself, though, I repeatedly see in this thread a chance to actual observe and understand the relationship between MA and business in a way that does not happen too often. Most of the time KMA development comes from people who simultaneously speak out of both sides of their mouths. IMHO I believe that the WHRDA is one very fine example of this. Problem is that there was little clear-cut info until AFTER someone committed an infraction. In the case of this thread we are seeing the intent and the rules laid-out beforehand, and I think it would behoove ANYONE---WKSA or not---- to take a look. In my own view I think we will be seeing a lot more of this sort of thing as time goes on and most organizations reveal themselves to be the commercial agencies we all suspected them to be all along. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  12. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    WOW! A lot went on over the weekend.

    To speed this up, I didn’t set the quotes, but everyone should know if I am answering your questions.

    Fightinchance: From post #83 and post 90
    #1 to reiterate: I am not an attorney, and I think I said this before. I am a consultant and our company uses attorneys for legal opinions. I am just here, by request of my client who purchased some services, to lend support to the idea of “not being a lemming and get a professional to look at this stuff.”

    #2 By contract, I just can’t give away documents to just anyone without some type of reasonable verification/approval. However, I am looking for a way to help you. I am waiting to see if any of the states are required to release their copies of The Agreement upon request. If so, then it will be deemed “public domain,” and then I can release a copy to anyone.

    Quozl: From post #84
    Although quotes are being given of The Agreement, when you read it in its entirety you get the essence of what the Franchisor wants to happen. If you leave, basically, they really don’t want you teaching their art and they want you out of the industry. In other words, get jobs doing something else.

    NCC/NCA’s are highly regulated in most states. We have found that in our state, their provisions are already outlawed by statute in our state, so our client can address this matter. Other people need to know to have the due diligence addressed for their state. We are also looking to see if this will violate Federal statutes as written.

    YearsOfHardWork: From Post #85
    Even if they don’t get a corporate store going, the point is that your instructor won’t be teaching their art to someone else, which is what I suspect their ultimate goal would be.

    emberKSW: From Post #85
    The Group A, B, C, email may have worked to everyone’s advantage and they may have to have the package withdrawn. I’ll have more later on that in the week.

    YearsOfHardWork: From Post #86
    I’m not pro-don’t sign it. Just sign it when the terms are favorable to you for the present and the future. Here is a short list of things most people aren’t thinking about and why they need a consultant or attorney:
    1. Transfer to other family members when you get old – goes from Group "A" to "C".
    2. Addition or deletion of investors, or shareholders – can put you in default if not reported in ten days, can lose your school.
    3. They can allow a new school to open in your territory. HOW MANY MCDONALD’S DO THEY LET OPEN IN EACH OTHER’S TERRITORY – 0!
    4. They don’t have a federally trademarked trade name [to be addressed shortly.] – They want you to get the state trademark, pay for it, and give it to them for free.
    5. You lose ALL intellectually property rights [to be discussed shortly] – you give them away for free upon signing.

    Lastly, every good businesses man knows that in any agreement the written version supersedes all verbal communications. So once you sign, *poof* no concessions.

    Fightinchance: From post #90
    A NCC is not really necessary. A limited NDA is more appropriate if they where “truly” interested in protecting the art. Remember, a NCC is to stop you from competing; a NDA is to stop you from talking. Also see above about the attorney thing.

    PopeCoyote: From post #93
    Your statements are accurate, especially that a former instructor wouldn’t even be able to stop being a teacher and become a student again under someone else. In The Agreement, it states that if you own two schools and want to sell one, you CAN’T! You must unload both and you are out of the picture. The point is if you stop, they want you out of the business.

    Of course, ultimately, in most states this will be deemed non enforceable. However, in others, the purpose is not to enforce; it’s to sue everywhere you catch someone. The threat of economic loss will continuously be all over the former instructor’s head.

    Musool: From post #96

    US Intellectual Property Law:
    There are three types of intellectual properties: [1] Trademarks, [2] Patents, and [3] Copyrights.

    [1] Trademarks: The US Department of Commerce’s U.S. Trademark and Patent Office handles trademarks and patents. A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others. A service mark is the same as a trademark, except that it identifies and distinguishes the source of a service rather than a product. The Agreement admits that they are unable to receive a Federal trademark for the phrase “Kuk Sool Won.” Why is this significant? A Federal trademark allows important protections of the mark: [a] constructive notice to the public of the registrant's claim of ownership of the mark; a legal presumption of the registrant's ownership of the mark and the registrant's exclusive right to use the mark nationwide on or in connection with the goods and/or services listed in the registration; [c] the ability to bring an action concerning the mark in federal court; [d] the use of the U.S. registration as a basis to obtain registration in foreign countries; and [e] the ability to file the U.S. registration with the U.S. Customs Service to prevent importation of infringing foreign goods.

    Failure to have a Federal trademark “®” for such a large organization means that all disputes of ownership will reside in state court “™;” this poses a huge problem because the only way you can own a mark in that state it to use it in commerce in that state, pay a fee and register it. As a result, Kuk Sool can not register it in any state they don’t have a school (conduct commerce.) As such, on their website, there are no schools in Nevada. If someone opened a school calling it Kuk Sool Won in Nevada, they’d have rights to that name in Nevada and Kuk Sool would have a problem challenging it in Nevada should some wish to open a school there.
    This would be a significant loss to ALL school owners. That is why in The Agreement there is a provision for you to register the name in your state, at your cost, and turn it over to them for free. (Page 20 for those with a copy: “In consideration therefore, Franchisee shall execute all documents and take such action as may be requested to allow Franchisor or other franchisees to have full use of the Trademarks.”)

    [2] Patents: A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor; there are three types of patents: [a] Utility patents may be granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof; Design patents may be granted to anyone who invents a new, original, and ornamental design for an article of manufacture; and [c] Plant patents may be granted to anyone who invents or discovers and asexually reproduces any distinct and new variety of plant.

    Body motions, like the katas you all do, cannot be “patented.” As such, this is why they want you out of the martial arts business should you decided to leave their organization.

    [3] Copyrights: Copyrights are handled by the Library of Congress’ U.S. Copyright Office. A copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of “original works of authorship” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and unpublished. The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description of their own or from making and using the machine.

    A copyright would protect your printed advertisements, video tapes - - - remember only to the duplication of the tape itself, not the content on the tape: people can still watch the tape and do the katas on the tape, websites, etc.

    Usually, if you have professionals take pictures, they give you copies or let you use the pictures but they retain the copyrights. They always charge extra for the copyrights. Kuk Sool, in The Agreement wants you to pay the up charge for the copyrights and turn them over to them if you use that picture in some Kuk Sool related advertising. Then, they go on to say that they can let other schools use the ad. (I’m sure they’d probably sell the ad to make money,) but that’s what they printed.

    Yes, musool, if you stop using the trademarked logo and never use the words “World Kuk Sool Association” you could in fact go on teaching “Kuk Sool Won” in your community as long as they have not registered “Kuk Sool Won” in your state - - - and it hasn’t been registered in every state, few to be exact. Remember, since they have no corporate owned store in any state, it will be first come first serve. They’d have to prove that they’ve been using it in commerce seeing that they have no corporate owned stores - - - that would be very difficult. The challenge is if two school owners in the same state went to register the phrase. The school that has been around the longest would win.

    Davefly: From post #99
    The difference between “Kuk Sool Won,” and “Kuk Sool” must be in translation if others switched to just “Kuk Sool.” Read above about US Intellectual Property.

    Unknown-KJN: From post #102
    See above about US Intellectual Property.

    The organization has NOT registered the phrase “KUK SOOL WON” in every state because they need a corporate owned store to do so – otherwise, they’d be falsifying paperwork.

    Kiwest: From post #110
    No one ever said that this document was applicable to any school outside of the US. However, it does not mean that your county won’t be next with some form of the document. If you have access to the document, then you should be helpful to your US counterparts in support of their decisions because they are part of the organization too. Their decision ultimately affects the benefits that you receive from the organization. Moreover, it seems, according to their website that there are more US schools than UK schools. A smaller organization is simply less power in all aspects of business, not to mention becoming the “laughing stock” of the industry.

    - - -
    On my close: Did anyone see this on page 36 of the Agreement: “Waiver of RICO. The parties hereto agree to waive, now and forever, any and all rights either may have under the federal statute known as RICO.”

    Go here http://en.wikipedia.org and read more about R.I.C.O.

    Does anyone know why RICO needs to be waived with this particular organization?
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  13. ImaJayhawk

    ImaJayhawk Valued Member

    Thank you seekthelight for your informative posts. I read through the documents this weekend and this thread has helped bring several questions to the front.

    One question I had is, since the documents are due back by the 30th to avoid paying the franchise fee, what are the implications of signing the Receipt document and the other that they are asking you to send back? You're not actually signing the franchise agreement, but are you obligating yourself to sign it by filling out these two forms?

  14. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    The receipt is just that - - - a simple receipt. It is to show that they have met the burden of Public Law via the Federal Trade Commission 16 CFR 436 that they actually turned over "A" copy of the, "Franchise Disclosure Document (FDD,)" as entitled by that law - - - what I refer to as "The Agreement."

    ***There is something very important concerning this matter that I have that I can send to US school owners via PM. Please do not post that information in this forum, it, in part has some matter specific to my client's situation, however, may help you if you have an attorney and to buy some time in this matter.***

    The second page, entitled "election form," however, is not part of and not required by that law. Like I said, I am not an attorney can can not make recommendations, however, this is the problem with that page:

    In some states it can be construed as a promise to enter into a business relationship. The second question, how it is phrased: "If you answered YES to question 1, would you prefer that the franchise be owned by you individually or by and entity that you own or control?"

    Most laws revolve on a simple premise, "what would a reasonable educated person understand from that statement."

    Read by itself, you have to understand that you agreed to start the process of starting a franchise with them. Read with the title of the form - "Election Form," you have elected to begin a franchise with them.

    Even though this contract would have no written penalties if you pull out of the contract, some states may have laws that can assign damages, because if they look at it as a contract, then you would be in breach. Nevertheless, to create a contact there must be [1] agreement, [2] consideration, [3] capacity, and [4] legality. Subsequently, each judge looks at each item differently and according to their own state's laws.

    My problem with it being a contract would be consideration - something of value. Others, however, might argue that your unexpired license is the consideration - - - because they still have to honor them until the expire. Maybe the argument would be: if you pull out, with the signing of the Election Form, you effectively canceled your unexpired license; thereby if you don't go through with the Franchise you're done.

    I'll find out more later, my attorney is off this week for Christmas.

    Oh, by the way, Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to everyone.
  15. nym

    nym Valued Member

    Hell what a pickle this is! LOL

    Here’s what I think for what its worth, sorry I’m not going to put in each quote to response but this is an overview of the whole thread. And as I have said in the past I’m not here to make friends and only write how I feel and see things.

    1 K J N Alex made a comment a few years ago regards Mrs I H S and himself visiting lawyers in New York to tie Kuk Sool Won up, I think this is more down to the above two than Kuk Sa Nim. Why would he at this stage of life start all this? K J N Alex has been the brain behind all the business decisions over the last few years so this could be his or Mrs I H S’s idea. From what I have seen K J N Sung Jin is more like his father and into the art more than the business side of things (most know that she has been the driving force behind the business side), why would it be kept in her family? She married into the family; Kuk Sool Won belongs to the Suh boys.

    2 This concerns all of Kuk Sool Won worldwide, not” it’s not my concern because we are in the UK and this only affects America at the moment”. If under duress most U.S schools sign then that leads the way for them to force U.K school owners to sign. About five years ago Kuk Sa Nim apparently told over 200 masters to leave due to them not agreeing with him on certain issues, and I heard that from him, not a third party. So who are we? Nothing more than expendable.

    3 As for masters leaving because they are not happy, yes that is the case for some but others have gone on to form their own organisation putting them in control and making more money. Its ok saying they gave 25 years to Kuk Sool Won, but they also took a lot over that period and now being masters they feel they deserve more so go out on their own and say its the fault of the organisation and they had no choice but to leave, knowing full well that HQ will never comment on the matter, which in turn puts them in a bad light. So maybe HQ are trying to tie everyone in so there is no chance of high masters screwing them over. Why does Kuk Sa Nim and sons not teach the high stuff to everyone but a select few? Because they get what they want then leave for their own financial benefit. As for UK masters all being loyal to him and none have left, its only a matter of time, a few from what I hear are thinking about jumping ship and if the franchise comes to the UK they will jump. Up to now Kuk Sa Nim has been very good to the UK school owners on the financial side, so they stay “loyal”. A story I was told which dates back a few years regarding a school owners meeting: While Kuk Sa Nim was speaking during the meeting a few senior instructors who sat at the back kept talking and laughing amongst themselves, which the person who told me about it was quiet disgusted with, some of the questions put to Kuk Sa Nim were also quite rude, but as soon as Kuk Sa Nim made a comment about special financial benefits for UK school the gave him a standing ovation. Showing it’s all about the money. School owners who are morally corrupt and get caught no one batters an eye, but as soon as finance comes into it everyone is in uproar.

    4 If all those involved at this time with these contracts refuse to sign, then HQ will have to rethink, as for the signed document has to be returned before the meeting, wait until the meeting and sign there after you are happy. All it takes is a couple of you to ring round and get the rest to agree to the above, it’s the holiday season so everyone should have some spare time to organise this.

    This could be the perfect opportunity for Simms and Co to take a large chunk of Kuk Sool with very little work or effort, but could be a case of better the devil you know.

    As for phoning Kuk Sa Nim and talking to him about a problem, I hear its almost impossible, he always puts Mrs I H S on.

    5 How long is the franchise deal for? Three years? Worse case you stick it out then not sign a new one leaving you to carry on running your school. How many people can they take to court over default on their contract? Kuk Sa Nim has the instructors loyalty, instructors have the students loyalty, so If my instructor was forced to leave most of us would go with him. Who’s to say another black belt cannot open a martial arts school next door and you become his student. Are HQ going to hire P.I’s to check on your every movement. I’m sure that no law in any country will stop a person becoming a student of another school that is now run by his old student (I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this).

    6 Why are Kuk Sool Won trying to f*** themselves over like this? Or do they believe they have such blind loyalty by school owners that they will sign whatever they hand out.
    I hope it all gets sorted before it goes too far. Or is this a mountain out of a mole hill that will benefit other Kuk Sool offshoots?
  16. YearsOfHArdWork

    YearsOfHArdWork Valued Member

    I agree. Thanks.

    The "Won" just mean association. They probably dropped it because they were no longer apart of the association.

    I think the purpose is to catch them once, then they can sue. I don't know how much they'd be allowed to get in a suit, but if you can bankrupt somebody, you won't have to hire a P.I. :vanish: to follow them around because you already know that you've sued them for everything they've got.

    :woo: Nothing more than pure revenge. :woo:
  17. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Valued Member

    This is troubling to me. I think Kuk Sool is a great martial art. The problem is that the only ones who know this are the people already practicing. Rarely does someone join just because it is Kuk Sool, and that is what they are looking for. Most often people have no idea what Kuk Sool is. It's not like you just hang your Kuk Sool Won of ..... sign up and the students come running. Anyone running a successful school has done a lot of hard work to get it there. The WKSA did not make their school successful, they did.

    I think if they want to franchise the schools they need to offer more than just a good curriculum they need to offer a proven business system that if followed will make a school profitable and worth the investment. Also they need to build the name recognition of Kuk Sool Won

    Why would any existing school that is doing well, want to agree to the terms discussed. They would gain nothing but stand to lose all they've built.
  18. YearsOfHArdWork

    YearsOfHArdWork Valued Member


    They think just because they collect a few testing fees, have plenty of money, can fly all over the world, have a ranch, and some cars, that all of their school owners are rich and they are out to take a piece of the school owners' pie.


    Some people are suffering to make their school a success. Some people really have to work harder because the business end of HQ is out of order. It is the fact that Kuk Sool does NOT HAVE ANY NAME RECOGNITION anywhere where a school owner has not placed it, is the #1 - - - - I repeat the #1 reason why the quality of the U.S. program is lacking.

    Instructors can't train like in their heart's desire, because they have to spend so much time passing out flyers, calling contacts, arranging demos, getting their school in events, etc. If Kuk Sool did their part from HQ and built a "beat my door down marketing plan," then school owners won't need a second job, and could train all day and improve their quality.

    Where does HQ feel they get their *entitlement?* Some instructors were doing economically well in other arts and due to the business plans of those other arts and is the reason why their Kuk Sool schools are a success - - - not from any plan HQ provided. They moved to Kuk Sool because of the art, not the business plan.

    HQ must realize that it has given NOTHING for free. Who did they train for free, who in reciprocal, left and started a school? NO ONE that I know of.

    Every student pays their instructor. Every instructor payed their instructor, and somewhere up the teaching tree, KSN got paid for his instruction.

    :star: This is unbelievable to think that any reasonable minded human being would try to interrupt the families and lives of so many people by doing this. :star:
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Just as a side note:

    I am a bit concerned that it might become acceptable to "demonize" the Mrs. regarding the issues under discussion. For those not familiar with Asian, especially Korean and Japanese culture, perhaps it is worthwhile to remember that the responsibility for the solvency of the household is traditionally the purview of the "primary wife". In our modern age we may tend to forget this, but it is certainly not lost on the cultural implications for the family. In like manner the responsiblity to one's parents to produce a child---especially a male child----is a vital now as it was a hundred years ago. The responsibility to make sure that a mother's first son has an inheritance is likewise nearly an institution. A quick review of such succession issues as one finds regarding the YONG SUL KWAN in Hapkido and the SOKE-ship in DRAJJ are but two examples of the premise.

    In the case under discussion it follows that the Brothers Suh/Seo may have constructed the business being considered, but the responsibility for assuring its solvency falls to the Mrs, and you can bet money she will do her job and not care a whit what anyone thinks of her tactics. It does not make her a "money-grubber" or "gold-digger". She's just doing her job.

    "It's not personal, Sonny. Its just business." (see: "The Godfather").

    Best Wishes,

  20. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member

    I just talked to a lawyer. California has very strong laws protecting existing license holders. Unfortunately many other states do not. He said Texas in particular is quite bad, so you need to protect yourself.

    This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach.

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