Kuk Sool Won franchise

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tatar, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    No, you're wrong, it's just that I'm used to the WKSA's usual way of not crossing their T's or dotting their I's. You are correct in stating that the chart in the email shows "group C" to be the original group B discussed by GM IHS earlier this year. The "group B" in the chart represents close relatives (parent, son, or daughter - ONLY) of a Group A franchisee who purchases the franchise from their immediate relative. And yes, it looks like according to this chart that EVENTUALLY *everyone* (regardless of group A, B, or C) will be subject to most/all of the financial obligations listed in the FDD (noting the franchise fee waiver for group A).
  2. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    It is painfully obvious you have not seen the document.
  3. fightinchance

    fightinchance New Member

    If you read back I had directed my post to "the light seeker." Freedom of speech is funny, some people only want it when it supports their opinion. You can post as you like.

    To answer the seeker:

    It is fishy - isn't it....hmmmmm, so confusing. Your right it's fishy...what can I say. It's also funny. Really really funny.

    Part (2) is still not complete? that was my whole concern. Where is the common sense? I have never seen a NCC/NCA that does not include stipulations and exceptions that protect the signer’s ability to still work in their chosen profession. Sorry to use same example - cannot practice within 25 miles of, with in 1 year of. ETC.

    The tech dept? Interesting in what way? I find lots of things about this interesting, but that isn’t one of them.

    Sorry to use Layman terms, there are alot of ‘contidionally’s and “with consent if required.” etc. loops - fun. So basically, you have to agree to give up the school if you exit the organization, so you can’t just change the name from Kuk sool won to _____, and then keep all your student’s etc. Soooo what the association would do is have another instructor come in and take over that same school/lease/etc. Again, I believe this is similar to the agreement used by USSD, and probably several others. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    If this document is SOOOO secret and can only be sent to school owners...again, I question the motive in discussing it here and sharing it anyway - Just post the whole thing so everyone can see it would be easier.

  4. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    I honestly do not pretend to understnad the legal processes in the US, and wrt Europe and the UK, my area of expertise is Environmental Legislation which hardly qualifies me to talk about business law, however, I do sort of have a couple of questions that I have because the loose ends here are tantilising.

    1) I understand from this trhead that a school owner who enters this agreement in the US, if for whatever reason leaves, or is forced to leave, looses not only his school , but the ability to teach martial arts anywhere within 25 miles of his previous school.

    2) I understand that the students of the school become the "property" of the WKSA as almost fixtures and fittings of the school.

    My question is, what rights do the studens have?

    Surely as an individual in the US, if you want to be taught something by somebody, in this case a martial art, surely a third party cannot tell you that you cannot learn from that first person, i.e. the teacher that you have. And surely this third party cannot force you to travel 25 miles to go somewhere else to learn what you want to learn?

    If a school owner's students want to stay with the school owner to be taught, and if they do not want to move 25 miles to get taught, and if they are prepared to join one of the un-affiliated KS-type organisations, then surely the WKSA cannot stop a student from exercising those rights?

    As a further question, who will the WKSA parachute in to run the school when the original school owner has left? Does the organisation have a line of instructors in Texas ready and willing to relocate all over the US to teach?

    I am fairly positive that everyone who has been talking about the particular clauses in the franchise areright in what they are saying. However, I find it very difficult to see that they can be enforced, when third parties, i.e. the students can turn around and say "Not on your Nelly! I support my school owner, and don't want him to go 25 miles away to teach me a martial art, and anyway, if you insist on this I for one will leave and take up knitting!"

    I truly believe, from what has been said, that this franchise thing appears to be happenning, but it sounds like the WKSA, probably hasn't thought this one through.

    Maybe this is why it is happening in the US and nobody I am aware of over here knows anything about it, since if it were tried over here, I am sure there would be some interesting legal challenges, probably involving the European Courts eventually.

    Whatever the case in the US, all I want to say to you all over there is good luck, and I hope this gets sorted out to everyone's benefit.

    Take care all (Oh and Happy Christmas etc for everyone).

  5. YearsOfHArdWork

    YearsOfHArdWork Valued Member

    I was approached by my instructor, as I am the asssitant. Concerning this matter my first though was to get an attorney. Fightinchance, I know what part "the light seeker," as you put it, is talking about. Yes, it does mention a 25 mile space after that section. I think what seekthelight means is that if my instructor decides to leave, he must wait two years and start a new school 25 miles away. Our city is only 12 mile long? Where is he supposed to make a living - - - in the forest? He's been doing KSW for years, I dunno if he even has a college degree or something else to rely on. And so far as another instructor, I'm sure they'd probably make up some story about the break up and try to get me or another balck belt to teach and pay us a small salary basically becoming a "corporate owned store," as the agreement say. After all, you have to send in financial statements, tax returns, and everthing else to them years anyway. If they can't make money, the'd just close the school down - - - but they'd win because the old school owner can't open another one up. Seekthelight is right, you lose everything if your try to leave. Just because a statement has a "conditional phrase," that doesn't mean that they won't take advantage of it in the long future or immediate future.

    This reminds me of when the Indians sold their land for trinkets.
  6. YearsOfHArdWork

    YearsOfHArdWork Valued Member

    Haven't they've always been hard nosed? What about he old Korean master, the new master, others like Jay Lee, Sims, etc.

    If they are willing to let talent leave, they'll let school owners leave too.

    I was told that GM doesn't really want anymore schools, and would prefer less.

    I think my instructor is just waiting to see what happens. I don't know if that is wise. What if everyone continues to wait and nothing happens?

    I thinks student's loyalty is to their instructor more than to the Association. What do you all think?
  7. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Now that makes a certain amount of sense. It's not fair, but it is Traditional in the sense of keeping things within families.

    What I'm gathering from this is that the initial packet needs reworked, and the affected (current school owners) are on it.

    For those who keep bringing up Jay Lee and such, I really wish you wouldn't. He already addressed just this on here three years ago:

    Do what makes sense for you and yours. Don't sign anything you don't agree with -- but don't walk away without discussing your reasons, respectfully, with the appropriate authorities.

    Life is change, and change is messy.
  8. YearsOfHArdWork

    YearsOfHArdWork Valued Member

    ember, thank you for your post. I just mentioned them as an example of KSW being hard nosed.

    Happy people generally don't leave anything. Upset people only can "take it" for so long. The people I mentioned, from what I've been told of them, some were humble in the business aspects of martial arts. They weren't looking to be millionaires or get rich off of it. They were just lookin to do martial arts well to the best of their abilities. That's how they earned their respect.

    I'm just saying it seems that respect is not a two way street with the Association - - - and don't get me wrong, respect and orders via rank are two diffrent things. I would not ask a 180-pound person to carry a bag that's 181 pounds even if I did out rank him. I think with this new agreement, the Assoociaition is puting an undue hardship on those who built the Association - the schools and their owners.

    The cart is before the horse on this matter. The schools give life to the Assocaition and not the other way around. No schools = defunct association.

    Lastly, I am tired of the people that say "if you do what you supposed to do, then you won't have a problem." I think what many people are talking about is what happens if you are doing what you are supposed to do and something happens, i.e. disaster like you get cancer. If you let a family member take over you go from Group "A" to "C" through no fault of your own. A two years later you recover, and you have lost your group "A" status.

    I think the purpose of this fourm is to have a neutral discussion. Neutral is to say protect your rights. I think when you try to give either side the benefit of the doubt like in fightinchance's case where he infers "but it's only 25 miles and two years then everything will be fine." seem pro-don't protect yor rights. Of course, sometimes seekhelight seems pro-don't sign it.

    I think everything is based on how many concessions HQ will make with each school owner. Nevertheless, that would put each school owner in unequal footing and that will then be the exact opposite of the purpose of the agreement. They have no history of making concessions with anyone, so I think that's why seekthelight's "client" probably sent him.

    If there are any owners here, have you asked for special permission to do something and HQ has said no? Have you ever gotten a real concession from them?

    I think that's ultimately where everything is going. They are trying to get people to sign under the guise that there will be concessions, however, seekthelight's warning is that there probably won't be any. Is that what you're getting at seek?
  9. tatar

    tatar Valued Member

    Then you referred it to the wrong person. As you can read you referred to "it" coming out in a forum. I brought "it" out to this forum. Seeker only added to the conversation. I referred to freedom of speech because you seemed to take offense that one would question a business decision. I believe in freedom of speech even for those with a dissenting opinion that is why I asked the question in the first place.

    Many others have been helpful with pros and cons on franchising. But others only attack those that question or comment or deny that the world is round.

    Being that the WKSA is privately owned the owners may do as they wish. I have enjoyed being part of the WKSA for many years and hope to continue, but I feared that many schools would drop out because of the financial requirements and it would not be same. By the "same" I mean that right now it feels like a family, not a business.
  10. fightinchance

    fightinchance New Member

    No offense was taken. and "it" should have been more directed at the actual terms of the agreement.

    If something is inciting people to run/jump/hide. I want to know what exactly it is i'm being called to run jump or hide from. Especially as I don't even get to see the document.

    YearsOfHArdWork - Thank you for finally telling me what the stipulation is...I was just giving the 25 miles as and assumption, the time limit was a guess too, but you have confirmed my assumption. There is nothing about illness etc in the contract?

    On another note, I know a lot of lawyers, I also know how much they charge just to write a note, let alone pick up a phone. So I tend to distrust anyone that spends this much time posting on forums like this. Kudo's to you LightSeeker if it's all in good will and for free...otherwise this cost someone?

    It wouldn't be the first time someone has tried to cause trouble via public forum - so you must understand how people jump to the defense.

    Again, thanks to you who have answered my questions.

    If this contract is unacceptable, and perhaps unfair - follow your instincts and take your concerns to the organizations. I'm sure there is a Lawyer in our ranks who would be able to draw up an appropriate contract?

    Sadly A NCC is necessary, but the terms and exceptions to that clause are what should be negotiated.

    Cheers and good luck.
  11. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    Can't dispute that!
  12. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    I don't recall anyone calling it a secret. However, since the package was about 3/4" - 1" thick stack of paper, posting here could prove challenging. :confused:

    The "motive" is no different that hearing that the company you work for is merging with another, or is purchased by another, and you wish to talk to all the other employees about the effect on the company or yourself. Happens all the time.

    I think it is clear here by everyone's response, that the desire is to have the school alignment with the WKSA effectively remain as positive as possible. If so, no one will likely care if it is franchise or license agreement. :cool:
  13. PopeCoyote

    PopeCoyote The words of the fool

    From what I've seen on this forum, I think they'd have to rework the agreement- one part in particular seems extremely difficult to enforce....
    Let's see...
    1) cannot engage in...any enterprise which is the same as or substantially similar to the System

    That means that a departed school owner could not continue practicing Kuk Sool on their own for their own benefit? That'd be hard, if not impossible to enforce.

    2)cannot engage in...ANY ENTERPRISE which is involved in the teaching of any form of martial arts....

    A person could not sign up for classes in another Kuk Sool school or any other martial art - again hard to enforce your will on other martial arts. Obviously this part is meant to prevent them from teaching KSW in another school under a different name, but the wording is way too broad for that.

    In general, that point is so broad to the point of being impossible to enforce, if not illegal (but having very little knowledge of law myself, I'll yield that argument to someone that does)
  14. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member

    ok this is my take on the issue. WKSA seem to want to franchise everybody for their own gain (apparently) and everybody (apparently) is dead against the idea because the "agreement" heavily favours WKSA and penalises school owners who may wish to leave the association.

    so, my question is. what would happen if all school owners got together and boycotted the franchise proposal? what would WKSA say and do if *we* all said "no! we like it the way it is and we don't want to change" surely that could undo all the hard work GM in hyuk suh has put on over the last 50 years.
  15. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    next world tournament would be a lot smaller. :)

    Seriously, though, it appears many of the concerns are already being addressed for CURRENT school owners. I hope it works out for everyone WKSA, school owners, and students alike.
  16. musool

    musool Valued Member

    An organized protest is a good idea. school owners would not be undoing KSN's hard work, KJN Alex and Samonim are. I don't sense KSN in this. This is not the spirit with which he built his style and the Association. Also, don't discount all the hard work individuals have contributed to help him establish his organization.

    I am not a school owner, but I have read the franchise agreement. I just wanted to see if anyone else interpreted this the same way. If this has already been discussed, I apologize.

    According to the agreement, the only trademarked symbol and restricted usage right now is use of the emblem (fist and swords.) By their own admission in the document, "Kuk Sool Won" and the curriculum, etc can't be trademarked and copyrighted. My reading of this is that if you walk away now without signing this agreement, you can teach Kuk Sool Won anywhere you would like. HOWEVER, if you sign the agreement, you will agree to all their stipulations including CLAIMS to copyright. After signing this agreement, if they decide to exercise their option to change terms and/ or increase fees (which they will do since KSN is not in control of WKSA LLC,) and you feel that you cannot accept this, your only choice is to leave your school with them and not teach any martial arts anywhere in the US for two years and not teach within 25 miles of your old school after that.

    The agreement has too many ways they can change things and no way for you to object or get out of an situation that you never intended to be in.

    In effect, you are giving them your school by signing this agreement and getting nothing in return except something you already have. They are not buying your school. I also resent the fact that it is just American schools. Why not wait until they can franchise worldwide and treat all schools in the Association equally.

    All you have to do now is drop the trademarked symbol and keep teaching. Or sign the agreement and live with completely unfavorable terms. They will change the terms; they will increase fees; they will expect you to follow along just as everybody has always done with the martial arts hierarchy.

    My instructor does not plan to sign this agreement as is.
  17. musool

    musool Valued Member

    Are they changing the franchise agreement? Or are these verbal and email assurances? If so, they don't count unless they are in the body of the agreement you sign.
  18. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    This is World Hwa Rang Do Association all over again.
  19. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member

    i thought that *kuk sool won* was trademarked but *kuk sool* wasn't, effectively meaning i couldn't leave WKSA and open up a school under the name Kuk Sool Won but i could leave and open up Davefly's School of Kuk Sool.

    also with regards to the condition saying that i couldn't start a school within 25 miles of the school i left and only after 2 years. this just wouldn't hold up in the uk. we have the european bill of human rights to contend with and although most of it is a load of bull i can see that they (WKSA) would be breaching my rights to open a business and support myself and my family if they tried to prevent me.
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Speaking both historically and from first-hand experience, I can tell you that Koreans are notorious for hold a grudge. While an "organized protest" sounds real reasonable and "democratic" you may be forgetting that you are not working within a "democracy". Fact is that the "association" as you call it is not actually an "association" but rather a rather large "sole proprietorship" regardless of what the papers represent it as. As such, when one organizes against the association it is not seen as a political action but rather as a personal injury to an individual who has pretty much become accustomed to having things his own way for very many years regardless of who gets banged-up--------including family members.

    My guess is that you can have an organized protest and will probably get some short-term gains. In the long-term I would not be surprised if there were subtle repercussions. Judging from the posts I have seen in the KUK SOOL area there seems to be more than a bit of trouble bubbling-around under the surface. Maybe this the occasion where the boil finally gets lanced and people are encouraged to move-on. After all a huge part of training in a KMA is learning how to submit to authority with which one strongly disagrees but chooses to support the organization nonetheless. This is the stuff of which KWANS are made, and the foreign nature of this attitude is probably why KWANS in the West are usually in name only. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,


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