Kuk Sool Won franchise

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tatar, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    Here is some more information for you.

    Visit this website, if you have been sent The Agreement: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/invest/inv07.shtm

    Please note:[From the above site]

    "Use the FTC Rule

    A franchise or business opportunity seller must give you a detailed disclosure document at least 10 business days before you pay any money or legally commit yourself to a purchase. You can use these disclosures to compare a particular business with others you may be considering or simply for information. The disclosure document includes:

    * names, addresses, and telephone numbers of at least 10 previous purchasers who live closest to you;
    * a fully audited financial statement of the seller;
    * background and experience of the business's key executives;
    * cost of starting and maintaining the business; and
    * the responsibilities you and the seller will have to each other once you've invested in the opportunity.

    If the seller doesn't give you a disclosure document, ask why. Verify the explanation with an attorney, a business advisor or the FTC by calling its toll-free helpline at 1-877-FTC-HELP (877-382-4357). Even if the business is not legally required to provide a disclosure document, you still may want one for your own information."

    Look at this:
    * names, addresses, and telephone numbers of at least 10 previous purchasers who live closest to you;
    * a fully audited financial statement of the seller;

    * background and experience of the business's key executives;


    * cost of starting and maintaining the business; and
    * the responsibilities you and the seller will have to each other once you've invested in the opportunity.
  2. ember

    ember Valued Member

    First, because the initial notes were less than informative, and provided highly exaggerated numbers where they were "specific".

    Second, because at the time I posted that, I had not heard anything from anyone I would consider an authority on the matter. I'm still not entirely certain that I have, although I fear SeektheLight will prove correct.

    Changes to the way schools operate HAVE been in the works for quite some time, I have certain knowledge of that. (Which is why WKSA would manage to leave a check undeposited for months--not typical behavior at all.)

    Now, I seem to recall in earlier threads about the way WKSA operates, some suggestions that it OUGHT to be a franchise. However, I doubt this was what the proponents of a franchise operation wanted when they suggested that.
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Thx, I would've provided more info but I didn't notice that you were requiring *proof* of operating a licensed school. Also, thnx for including the link to pertinent info on the FTC website. :cool:
  4. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    Are you a student or a school owner? If you are a student, be humble, but ask your instructor. If you are an instructor, then you already know, or are in a state where they haven't got approval. If you are, email me and I'll send you the package.

  5. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    State of Wisconsin
    Department of Financial Institutions

    File No: 538054 File Code: 71 Date Recvd: 16-OCT-08 Status 1: R
    Examiner: City: TOMBALL State: TX Country: USA

    They have successfully filed in WI, and now it is a matter of public record.


    Name: WKSA LLC dba Kuk Sool Won # 1
    Registration Date:
    Exemption Date: 2/29/2008
    Termination Date:
    Address: 20275 FM 2920
    Tomball, TX 77377
    File Number: 2008-0051
    Status: Exemption
    Surety Type:

    Successful filing in TX

    Not listed yet in CA
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  6. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    No, I suspect any franchise proponents were looking for WKSA to absorb some of the costs in operating their specific location, not the butchered documents (so very typical of their *professionalism*) presented in "the Disclosure."

    And FYI, the $50K+ amount previously mentioned is at the top end estimate for running a full-time school. Bottom end is a little less than $7K, FWIW (also, part-time school fees ARE less but not by much -- estimates of $2.7K ~ $8.6K, with franchise & filing fees, etc. approximately half of what's charged to FTschools - everything else DOES apply however).

    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  7. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Yes ;)

    I moved away from my school in April. There is no official school within ~3 hours drive of where I live. We did receive permission to teach before we left. The paperwork for starting our club was first delayed due to administrative problems, and then held while this was being sorted out.

    So, I suspect our instructor will have more information when next we meet, but that'll be after the holidays, and I don't know how much he'll know.
  8. Custom Volusia

    Custom Volusia Valued Member

    Sorry, was referring to posts 51 and 52. Should've stated that. My bad.
  9. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    unknown-KJN: that's the point of this. To inform everyone of exactly what you said.

    Don't go it alone! Seek an attorney. Don't ASS-U-ME that the Franchisor will do right by you. Protect you, your family, students, and your livelihood. Don't live as if you don't have a choice, because you do. Call your friends and colleges for help and their opinions - see what their intentions are.

    Even my client, when I called on Wednesday, hadn't made a choice, but stated, "I'm gonna call some folks, to see who is gonna actually stay."

    What good will this be for you to join and everyone else leaves? After that, they will own you and it will be too late.


    Also, did anyone click the "Sundae Station" picture?
  10. Custom Volusia

    Custom Volusia Valued Member


    Then someone could open a school here in Chesapeake VA! :)
  11. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned


    Some sort of ice-cream vending machines? What gives?

    and to Custom Volusia, you may be onto something here...
    (long live the Independent Kuk Sool confederation) :happy:
  12. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    Well, click a link on the ice cream page, and you'll see it's a fake franchise page that the FTC set up to warn people about questionable :vanish: franchises.
  13. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    I am aware. I have read the document. I was just stating the same in more general terms. :)

    That clause should CERTAINLY exclude existing school owners at a minimum!!!
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2008
  14. fightinchance

    fightinchance New Member


    If you walk away with nothing, does that also include the debt/mortgage etc? Also, what are the other stipulations?

    ALL NCC's that I have seen have portions that also protect the signer as in "within 25 miles" Not a (ie) you may never teach or practice any other martial art that has kicking in it??? Sorry there is only so much they can do to say that you are teaching their product. Not being funny, as I don't have the paperwork to look at.

    Absolutely when you are looking at ANY buisness deal you are ignorant if you don't have a Buisness lawyer look at it.

    If none of these school owners agree to the Franchise papers as they are, they will have to be redrawn. They aren't going to cut off all their schools.

    KSW needs a better school owner contract obviously.

    Lastly, I Still find this whole thing fishy, that it comes out in a forum, by some mysterious do-good-er on a martial arts forum. All for the mighty protection of his "clients" fellow martial artists? NOW if the "client" himself was doing the informing, I might not find this in anyway quite as suspicious. Or am I the only one who see's a big flashing red light.

    Really, what's your motive.
  15. tatar

    tatar Valued Member

    I started this thread after having seen and read the legal documents concerning the franchising if KSW. I simply asked a question to seek others opinions on whether or not the franchise idea was good or bad. Freedom of speech is now considered fishy?
  16. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member


    The reference to the franchise is real. I, as well as others, have seen this document. It is not a joke. It is not a rumor. Not all school owners have them yet. HQ did not send this to students. Only school owners and instructors/students close to school owners have likely seen the paperwork. And I doubt there's any "motive" on any member's part here. HQ does clearly state in their cover letter what their intent is with the franchise.

    If they were completely hard-nosed about the franchise, AS IT IS CURRENTLY WRITTEN, they would probably lose most existing schools because NO ONE in their right mind would be willing to agree to the no-compete clause that has been discussed. However, they ARE indicating that many of the concerns do NOT apply to existing schools. It is not part of the disclosure yet. It is an email from them.

    I truly hope they put it in writing that IN EFFECT that everything operates as usual for existing schools and the renewal is every 3 years (franchise) rather than annually (current).
  17. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I have no window into your heart, Tatar, so I am not about to guess at your motives. What I will say is that I, for one, appeciate this discussion. Its not that I have any particular axe to grind with the WKSA. Rather, threads such as these which seek to shed light on business practices are far too few. Those that do crop-up are usually cut short because people in the know are reluctant to share information or be seen to "tell tales out of school".

    As I write this I am thinking that maybe people who are considering some relationship with the WKSA may be well-served by what is being shared here. So far I don't see anything particularly toxic about this franchise thing. If the KSW people can pull it off, more power to them. If someone gets burned for not having read the fine print, CAVEAT EMPTOR. For me personally, the whole idea of martial commerce could go to Hell tomorrow and would not be missed; but thats just me. As always YMMV.

    Best Wishes,

  18. fightinchance

    fightinchance New Member

    My point is not weather or not KSW is going into franchise, it is pertaining to the NCC and wording of the document as we are not all privy to it.

    It's easy to take a document in pieces and manipulate the intent.

    Regardless of weather or not we are school owners now, each student is a potential school owner. I believe the reason we haven't seen this as such on here, is that actual school owners ARE discussing this with each other, and not in a public forum. Most school owners probably wouldn't have a problem with the NCC as it is. You really only have a problem with an NCC if you are TRYING to compete, or get "fired". Again...I haven't seen the document.
  19. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    I will work your answers to your questions in reverse.

    [1] Your location says UK, but yet you make a large and fancy United States allusion to the NCA/NCC. Non-competition agreements are prima facie against public policy in the United Kingdom and therefore unenforceable unless found to be reasonable in the interests of the contracting parties and of the public. There are two stages in assessing reasonableness. Firstly, the non-competition agreement must be drafted to protect only the legitimate proprietary interests of the ex-employer. Legitimate interests include customer/client/supplier connections, trade secrets (or other information of a confidential nature), and the stability of the workforce. Moreover, they are only offered to Senior Management. As such, unless you are senior management, you wouldn't to often see such documents unless you're actually in the United States. As such...that something truly fishy.

    I'm not here to do personal attacks against WKSA or anyone in this forum. I just want everyone who has a school to do their due diligence and hire an attorney and don't end up like sheep to a slaughter.

    [2] The document states: "[a current or departing franchisee can not] ...own, maintain, engage in, consult with, participate or have interest in the operation of (1) any enterprise which is the same or substantially similar to the System (2) OR ANY ENTERPRISE which is involved in the teaching of any form of martial arts...."

    "OR ANY ENTERPRISE" is a very broad power and will put any instructor who is in the military, law enforcement, a bouncer, private investigator, etc. IMMEDIATELY in breach of contract.

    We know that that phrase may not hold up in most states; however, you need to check with an attorney to see if it may hold up in your state.

    [3] Did you know that the tech department says that this is the only forum they've found so far that is discussing this matter. Interesting isn't it?

    [4] Lease: "Franchisee to conditionally assign such lease or sublease to the Franchisor (with the consent of the lessor, if required) in a form reasonably acceptable to Franchisor in order to secure performance of any and all of Franchisee's liabilities and obligations to the Franchisor; or That such lease or sublease contain the following provisions: The lessor shall agree that without its consent, the lease or sublease and the right, title and interest of the Franchisee thereunder may be assigned by Franchisee to Franchisor or its designee."

    [5] Property Owner: "...and all of the owners of Franchisee owning at least twenty five percent (25%) of the equity shall execute a personal guaranty of all obligations of Franchisee to Franchisor...."

    ...I just got an important phone call....
  20. seekthelight

    seekthelight New Member

    Okay, this is interesting:

    Supposedly, there is supposed to be a Group "A" and Group "B" that was supposed to be talked about at some meeting earlier this year. Group "A" was supposed to receive a separate set of terms or be "grandfathered in" to the old terms. Group "B" are supposed to be receiving the new Agreement.

    Everyone is confused because of this and this is why everyone is astonished.

    I, after, reviewing a email forwarded to me during the phone call, see some smoke and mirrors. The organization is not going to charge Group "A" the franchise fee by addendum, however, the email alludes to some of the terms that Group "B" has that Group "A" will have to follow.

    I think that the terms are applicable to both groups, and Group "A" is just gonna get an addendum for the waiver of the fee.

    This confusion is just enough smoke and mirrors, to get people to sign and be in the wait and see attitude, and get trapped into this contract.

    People are under the belief that they have time to wait and discuss it in the next group meeting, or that they will ultimately have different terms given to them that substantially differentiates them from Group "B".


    There is an attachment with the email. There is a group "A," "B," and "C." The previous Group "B" I mentioned is now Group "C" and Group "B" is undefined to who they are.

    ???? I'll get back with you all when I have more info, if you need anything, email me. The office closes in a little, and we are closed on Sundays.

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