Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tatar, Dec 15, 2008.
That may be a good idea.
Why are only some school owners aware of this?
Surely they would contact all school owners about this? So far it only seems to have been released to some parts in the US!
How can they claim ownership of your premises if you have bought them (i.e under a mortgage, payable over 25 years)? When you purchase premises you enter a legally binding contract that you are responsible for! So are you saying that if you decide to leave the association that you stop paying your mortgage/lease payments and have no responsibility, resulting in WKSA taking on the payments for an empty building?
Surely this can't be the case as the banks would still chase the owner i.e the school owners for the payments and not the WKSA.
This all seems a bit funny to me!!
The United States of America is a quilted patch work of states attempting to form a more perfect union daily.
Each state has there own laws.
In certain states, such as California, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin, has certain laws concerning a Franchise.
WKSA can not offer; (sending a copy of the documents is considered a offer,) to any one in any state where they have not had the documents filed and approved by that state's governing body. Either they are pushing this at the last minute, or they may have been rejected in some states and have to redo the paperwork.
In the Franchise agreement, you agree to have clauses added to your lease giving them access to the property - co-tenancy; however, you pay the bills as long as you are there. If you leave, they take over the lease.
As a property owner, you sublet to them in the event you quit; they can lease the property from you until they find another place to put the school, or continue to lease the school from you.
Either way, you can't use the property to start a new competing school.
There is an indemnity clause, you stop paying the note on the building, they can sue you for business interruption/breach of contract, or get an injunction to make you pay the mortgage company, or they can pay the mortgage company directly. If they do that, they gain a lean on the property.
The building won't be empty because they will have a continued right to operate the school there, and you are contracted out of taking your students with you. To accept any former student would be breach of contract.
If any school owner hasn't seen the document - as a friend school owner in another state to send it to you. A friend of mine in the "swamp" can email it to you.
I need to add one other thing:
ANYTHING YOU SIGN IN WRITING SUPERSEDES ANYTHING YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD BY KUK SOOL.
I've just been told that my client received an email from them. Unless an addendum is created, that email is NOT part of the Franchise agreement.
I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like you (meaning seekthelight) are are on the ball with all the various ramifications involved with this *unadvisable* approach the WKSA is taking.
Was the document converted to PDF? If so, please use the email link in my bio to send a copy my way!
All it would take is two schools to get the ball rolling, then others would see the advantage and I bet it would snow ball after that.
It says that you can't receive emails.
There's been some serious back-stroking (the swimming kind)... the claim by HQ is that MOST of the items of concern do NOT apply to EXISTING school owners, unless they change the business name. However, the FDD they sent out does not state that. I HOPE that is true. There's a number of additional concerns my school owner has and I truly hope HQ makes the changes. #1 being the "no compete" clause. Those that have seen it know what I mean. It is somewhat mentioned in a couple of previous posts.
I do know that there are a few states that have different legal requirements and the package is being modified for them.
Kidosool...i need to someway confirm that you are a school owner; then I'll send it.
dbt4581... the non-compete is the element that creates the situation where you walk away with nothing.
Everyone, this is on purpose. If you wanted to keep a secret, a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) is more appropriate, not a NCA (Non-Compete Agreement.) The Agreement has a NCA NOT a NDA. That is a strong red flag.
A 70 year old man and his ambitious wife have received some bad advice from attorneys that live and work in, "Franchise Heaven","Strip Mall Central", Houston. IHS's wife is having wild fantasies about being revered as all-powerful, business and cultural heros in Korea by becoming successful franchise owners here. The 125 missing pages would be the part that IHS contributes on how to grow your student body and how to structure your classes. But, since martial artists don't think, speak or write in ways which fit into business plans, the "helpful to franchise owners" part of the document will never be. "Hunny, me and the lawyers have the franchise part done. Now it's your turn to write 125 pages on the Martial Arts stuff you do..."
well, i could only imagine , if this hear say were to be true, is that the wksa is fixing to lose even more instructors. it's hard to imagine the wksa would chance this risk, but who knows. seems to me that the wksa has been falling apart at the seams for a while, but now is in a straight downhill nonstop ride should something like that take place. would it not better serve them to have a little more support to their school owners than fleece the school owner for all they are worth? again, as i stated in a link before, this would be one of those strong arm tactics i was talking about when i was quite chastised to the contrary. but i think bruce and seek the light would be right in seeking a lawyer. a school owner has a business, you do have rights. if this bit of gossip were to be true, then it seems kinda underhanded to me...... but i am no lawyer and do not understand very much in the way of legalities. on the other hand, it is america, the suh's have a right to do what they want with their assocoation, i just feel bad for you guys that have invested so much into a system you love to have them turn around and do something like that to you.... again, should this gossip be TRUE AND ACCURATE. i wish each of you the best and hope it works out for you.
Hi I am new here.
Dont know how long I will stay tho! LOL
There are some strange things being said on this string.
First we have someone who says that KSW is going to "become" a franchise. Well, as a school owner I can tell you that effectively it has been a franchise for some time. Ie: We all pay a licence fee which allows us to operate a KSW school in a restricted area for a specific period of time and no other KSW schools will be allowed within a specified area of this school to protect the owners business. As far as I am concerned, regardless of any nitpicking legal definitions, that is a franchise.
As for the 50K. That is laughable. The person who posted the link has offered no evidence that this is going to happen. I am in touch with HQ on a weekly basis and have recently visted there. Also Kuk Sa Nim and two of his sons were recently in the UK holding an Instructors workshop and NOTHING has been mentioned about this. There is no way that the WKSA would do this. For heavens sake, they havent even raised the black belt testing fee in the last 30 years!!! They don't need to because the organisation is growing so fast. You only have to look at the list of official WKSA schools on the HQ website to see this. This is pure fiction. If you have any evidence show it. If not then shut up!
And 2 1/2 years to Black belt??? I dont think so!!
WKSA regulations do not allow anyone to get to 1st dahn that quickly. Testing every 3 months it takes at least 15-18 months to get to DBN (black belt candidate) the student then has to test every 3 months for a minimum of 2 years to reach black belt. And even then he or she has to test at the appropriate time, when a national test is going on. That make a total of at least 3 years 9 months, although in my experience it is often much longer and more like 5 years. I NEVER recommend anyone for 1st dahn in less than 4 years and often it is 5 or 6.
As far as I am aware, the only exceptions to this, are when, with permission from Kuk Sa Nim, a student trains several times each week (5 or 6 ususally) in a situation where he or she cannot stay in the same place for 4 years. This might be for example where training takes place on a military base and the student only has 2 1/2 or 3 years to try to complete his or her training before being posted. In this situation it MIGHT be possible to get to Black belt sooner but it os certainly NOT the rule. Just ask anyone who REALLY knows ie a black belt student or school owner! And after all if Kuk Sa Nim cant make exceptions then there is something wrong!
I believe that this string is nothing more than a disaffected ex KSW student or instructor who is trying to "rattle" the immensly strong organisation which is the WKSA.
Someone else said that the WKSA has been "falling apart at the seams for years"
Thats strange, because I have recently come back from HQ in Texas where the largest ever martial arts tournament was held with over 2000, yes two thousand, competitors. I was amazed by the amount of investment in new facilities for the training of instructors and students.
Anyone who "knows", knows that the WKSA is probably the strongest martial arts organisation around. Sure ocassionally people leave, usually when they can't get their own way, or because they don't like the rules. Well, tough.
Well said Sir.
This is exactly how I thought it happened too!
KIWEST - Why when someone has the opposing voice, they must be disgruntled or a dissenter? Why, because someone is a part of an organization, they should no longer be able to protect their rights?
There may have been no mention in the UK concerning this, however, this plan has been activated in the US markets. My client wants me just to make sure that all his KSW counterparts where ever they be, if they have access to this forum and other to know that:
1) THEY WILL BE IN, ALL OF NOTHING, SHOULD THEY ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT.
2) SHOULD THEY WALK AWAY, THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TEACH MARTIAL ARTS AGAIN IN A GEOGRAPHIC AREA OF 25 MILES FROM THEIR OLD SCHOOL, FOR A PERIOD OF TWO MILES.
3) THEY CAN'T TAKE ANYTHING WITH THEM AND THEY WILL HAVE TO START OVER AGAIN.
Moreover, you do know that with the proper paperwork and fee, you can license the Oakland Raiders (NFL) logo and print it on stuff and sell the items. That does not create a "Franchise."
The overall problem is that you all had a license agreement to use logos and such, however, it was not a franchise.
Proof - Legal filings are public record. Email Randall.Schumann@dfi.wisconsin.gov, ask him if WKSA, L.L.C. is approved to offer a franchise in Wisconsin and wait for the reply.
Please, don't sign anything until you have an attorney look at it.
Non-Compete Clauses are used often in the Buisness world. I have worked for companies that used them and I see the purpose in it. Ie: If you have an employee who you have trained under YOUR system, they could then turn around and work for another competing company and take your systems with them. Obviously bad for buisness - thus NCC/NCA.
Is there a section regarding QA in the contract, are there more rules ie. If school owner breaks rules - etc? I think for KSW that would be more than wise to do, and I generally agree with the idea of a NCC/NCA - I would have to see the terms and stipulations of course.
Overall, isn't it just protecting what the guy spent his whole life building up...
By the way seek the light:
I know a LOT of lawyers, and I can't picture any of them on a forum discussing their clients situation/concerns. It's a little weird...kind of like you are looking for clients? No offense.
in response to post #52 by newbie, KIWEST
FWIW & AFAIK the *old* license agreement was originally undertaken as a bypass around the restrictive policies governing franchises, allowing for a modicum of control by WKSA and still keeping fees paid by schoolowners (i.e. license holders) at a minimum. So you're right about the fact that WKSA had always INTENDED to restructure as a full-blown franchise, but I beg to differ with your assessment that the current WKSA licensing is the same as a franchise in the TRUE (or legal) sense of the word (regardless of any "nitpicking"). For the sake of discussion on this thread, please read all the posts carefully, as the "$50K initial cost" and the "2.5 years to BB" you reentered into the argument were already adequately addressed (in posts #39 & #38, respectively).
And you had better get your story straight, cuz as a matter of fact, I have had contact with a schoolowner that HAS received the new franchise agreement in the mail (USPS) and by his description of it, it's probably at least 100 pages of legal mumbo-jumbo that would take a week or so to sort through (best to just let a lawyer help out IMO).
So rant on about other *unrelated* BS (who gets to determine policy for promotions, etc.), but the bottom line is that the WKSA has decided to take a risk that could easily put an end to all the hard work & effort that GM IHS has put in over the years to build the organization I have come to admire & respect. Trailblazer's depiction of *possible* (but highly likely) events in his post #50, speaks to me ever so loudly, as he has captured the character and demeanor of Shin Suk Hui (신숙휘- i.e. Mrs. IHS) perfectly.
Fightinchance - Many companies use NCC/NCAs and NDAs. The problem is the wording of this particular clause. I called for a quote for you (that's why it took so long for me to get a reply to you,) and the document states: "[a current or departing franchisee can not] ...own, maintain, engage in, consult with, participate or have interest in the operation of  any enterprise which is the same or substantially similar to the System  OR ANY ENTERPRISE which is involved in the teaching of any form of martial arts...."
"OR ANY ENTERPRISE" is a very broad power and will put any instructor who is in the military, law enforcement, a bouncer, private investigator, etc. IMMEDIATELY in breach of contract.
Moreover, should you leave, you could be sued if you made an attempt to make a living in a martial arts related field, or worked for any enterprise that taught martial arts no matter what the scope of the training and what it is to be used for.
Lastly, my firm does managerial consulting, and we do employ attorneys as part of the staff. I am not an attorney - I am just providing information from the brief that my client paid as authorized by my client with was reviewed by our firm. This is being done for the reasons previously mentioned.
unknown-KJN: check you email, my tech dept has verified you and I sent you a copy of The Agreement
Why are some still saying this is a rumor when you have someone who is willing to send the very thing we are all talking about to you if you can verify that you are a school owner? That doesn't sound like a rumor to me. You don't have to physically see something to know it's true when enough evidence has been presented to the appropriate people. Also, it has been stated several times that this doesn't affect the UK...soooo....OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T SEE ANYTHING ON IT!!!!
Separate names with a comma.