Just joining MAP Hello all. It's been a while since I've posted to an online forum. I came across this in my KSW travels through the Internet and decided to give a post and look around. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute a bit to the discussion here and there. I was part of that nasty little split in the organization and am currently a part of the KKSA (under Kuk Sa Nym In Sun Seo). Once I've caught up with all the reading, hopefully I can respond a bit more. I'll try and jump in where I can. Regards
Hello Hi, been reading through the posts for a few days now and thought I'd sign myself up and start joining in the discussions with my fellow KSWer's. I'm a 1st degree and been training for 5 years in the UK. Not much else to say about me really so I won;t bother rambling on anymore!
Korea Kuk Sool Association. It was the initial organization founded by In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo, before In Hyuk Suh founded WKSA. In Sun Seo still heads the Korea Kuk Sool, which has essentially been melded in many ways with the Kidohae. While the two organizations were together, In Sun Seo was Chiefmaster of WKSA and KKSA. When the "split" happened, In Sun Seo recieved the Korean side of things as part of the "agreement". Many of the senior korean masters stayed with the KKSA. In Sun Seo petitioned the Korean govt to become a Kuk Sa Nym and received the recognition. Without getting too deep in the politics of things, I went to the KKSA because my KJN (Chun Duk Lee) went and to remain loyal to him was more important than the politics of the two organizations. Many of the other U.S. masters left the organization all together. I'd say the hardest part of the split was for my master. One of his sisters is married to In Sun Seo, and another is KJN Choon-Ok Harmon. This split in the organization has caused a lot of pain for many people. Regardless, we all continue on. That help with some explanation?
How long ago did this split in the organisations happen? Is there an English website for the KKSA? I'm sure that I saw one time an official type website for Kuk Sool that was mostly Korean so I'm guessing now that it was for the KKSA. :Alien:
you might be talking about this http://www.kuksoolwon.or.kr/kuksool/index.php That's the site for the wksa in korea
It sad to see politics affect great martial artists and the art itself. In my experiences and from what I've heard alot of the problems stem from the 10 mile rule. Whats the actual policy on it? Is it 10 miles from the location of the school or 10 miles from the edge of the town or city you are registered to. Take London for example, its a massive city so does that mean an instructor can buy the rights for London and own it all as well as 10 miles outside of London. How is this rule enforced etc? It seems to me that its moving towards being a business more than a martial art. Don't get me wrong I love the art and alot of the people in it but it seems that the purity of the art is getting watered down with business aspects!
"In my experiences and from what I've heard alot of the problems stem from the 10 mile rule. Whats the actual policy on it? Is it 10 miles from the location of the school or 10 miles from the edge of the town or city you are registered to. Take London for example, its a massive city so does that mean an instructor can buy the rights for London and own it all as well as 10 miles outside of London. How is this rule enforced etc?" in major citys like london the distance between clubs is a 5 mile radius, and this is taken from the location of your school, any natural boundries like a river will also be considered to be your school boundery if it falls within your radius. this is inforced by the masters who have to aprove your licence application before you are allowed to start a school. as for the point,it is so that no one can accuse another school owner of stetting up next to them and poaching there students. as far as the stiuation in london is there are now 4 schools (london north, london south, barking and bromley) but there is room for about another 30 schools (there are 7 million of us) so if you want to start a school, come to london we have plenty of room!
Makes sense now. Thanks KSN. I agree that it does makes sense to have the rule to stop too many schools opening up next to each other, just wondered how it worked.
The split started in the early 90s and was pretty much done around '95. There is a website WKSA has put out for it's Korean members. Kidohae has pretty much taken over KKSA.
I couldn't agree with you more. This major rift has split apart a lot of people. I try to stay out of the politics, but it's hard when people you care about are impacted. The split between In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo has hurt many people. Unfortunately a great deal of this conflict is monetary. When an instructor wants to form a school, he/she petitions their applicable association for permission. In most of your cases, the WKSA (In Hyuk Suh) will either grant or deny you permission. The rule used to be 25 miles. In Master Timmerman's instance, this rule was violated when one of his student's, who was upset at him, petitioned WKSA and received permission to open a school within this radius (I believe the school was within 10 miles of Master Timmerman's school). This was even more difficult for Master Timmerman since he was supposed to be the master who oversaw Canada. Both Kuk Sa Nyms are running a business and as such are looking to make money. It's very tough because the approach they are taking is ripping the organization apart and affecting many more people than just those two brothers. I would imagine you are going to see a further dilution of masters and senior instructors over the next decade as more leave to form other organizations or to join other organizations. With that stated, we are all students and the politics sucks. Questioning is good as you should never follow blindly. I would encourage you to try and stay out of it as much as you can. Enjoy your training and appreciate this art. We have many fantastic instructors in Kuk Sool (regardless of what side of the fence you sit on). After all, "We Need More Practice!"
you can't run a global martial art organization without running it like a business, if you want to be part of a world wide organization accept that there will be business and politics involved. you can choose to stay out of both and just practice the art, but dont decieve yourself that business and politics are not a nessercery part of an organization of this size, how else could an unknown korean build up a global martial art association in less then 50 years. remember also that kuk sool is a monarchy not a democracy, what kuk sa nim says goes, if this is not what you want in a martial art organization find one that best suits your ideals. personaly i would rather have one strong individual who kept everything in order then a commity arguing all the time. remember that the martial art is good, thats why we all chose it, but you have to decide if you agree with the way it is run (not some hollywood mystical claptrap about martial arts being pure and untainted by money. you wouldn't expect a olympic coach to teach and pass on there vast amounts of knowledge and experiance for nothing, so why do we expect it from martial art instructors?)
Oh yeah... Still not as worrying as those uniforms you crazy kids wear (Got to see some up close recently, really had to bite my tongue ) but worrying none the less.
Well actually i've trained with a some self protection guys and they never charged me a penny.So good martial art systems don't have to be run as a business they just do if you want to make money from them. But that said,i still choose KSW as my base camp,though i have a good deal on that as its only costing me a few pounds a year.
silentmonk is right a good martial art system dosn't have to be run as a business, but a global brand does. the shaolin monks run as a business, jkd runs as a business, tkd runs as a business, wksa is run as a business. as for makeing money from martial arts, whats wrong with that?
Kyo Sa, I agree that martial arts instructors and masters have a right to make money. Historically, Korean and Chinese masters would charge X bags of rice for instruction. They would either sell the rice or use it for food. This is how they made their money. In the process of making money, you stand a chance of alienating people. Where the bad blood comes into play is when people feel they have been slighted by this process and have not been taken care of or their desire to be more than they are (i.e. "Why can't I be a Kuk Sa Nym) gets in the way of their loyalty. Money and ego, in various combinations, is the direct cause of the splits in the organization. I don't have a problem with the splits except for their affect on the family at the top (i.e. the Suh family and those who are an extended part of it). Splits can allow other people to expand their horizons, and in other cases can get bad blood out of the organization.
Nothing wrong with it at all and people surely realise that the instructor is trying to make money. As long as the service that they provide is a quality one then i see no reason to complain and if they don't think they are getting value for money they can always leave. Its a consumer market afterall.
