Something else that can be done is "maintanence testing", where black belts (all ranks) have to get out on the floor once/6 months with a testing group and do the test themselves (with their own requirements and with previous skills). There's no fee and no promotion but should be required at least 2 or 3 times before the next promotion test. In this way, if it's done openly, everyone gets to see what the balck belts can do and they provide a good model for the students. Done privately, it gives the other black belts a chance to offer ideas, suggestions, and learn from each other. Personally I think "instructors" should serve a kind of internship and then be appointed to the various levels (e.g. assistant instructor, full instructor, senior instructor, etc.). It could be tied to a minimum rank but there's no denying that some people are "made" to be instructors and others aren't. I'd also like to see a minimu time required in training before being able to open a school.
My instructor makes the blackbelts test regularly at our club i remember him sayin once thats the way Kuk Sa Nym wanted it in order to 'Keep the quality'
this is something i have suggested to my instructor. i promoted in june 2005 and therefore have approximatly 4 years before my next promotion. which means i won't have to do any official tests for around 3 years. i have decided that from the beginning of 2007 i want to join in, say every other, club grading to help prepare myself for my larger official gradings.
Oh really? I think in general you are correct. However I can think of one or two exceptions right away.
I've found throughout my experiences in Kuk Sool and life that age, rank, ability have no direct link to the level of respect that they display. I've seen white belts that have better etiquette and show more respect than various levels of black bets, both young and old. Its one of these things where there isn't a set standard on it because everyone is different. You will find in all aspects of life people that will display excellent etiquette and show the utmost respect to everyone when its least expected yet you will find in people who should know better acting like spoiled brats. Respect is a 2 way thing. It should never be expected! It should be earned from both the student and the instructor. The student earns the respect of the instructor by training hard and by doing the best they can do and in return the instructor earns the respect of the student by leading by example as well as teaching not only kicking and punching but moral values and guidance! Just my 2 cents
LOL. I've noticed that! Well, we work for balance. Even people holding high belt levels are people, with all the problems people have. At least, by the time they have achieved some rank, they should have at least LOOKED at all their problems, if not overcome most. Progress, not perfection. You need to look at how far people have come in their lives, not just where they are on the road. I understand in Kuk Sool Won it is people's rank and training we are expected to respect, not the person. However, the high ranking people I've had the opportunity to interact with on a personal basis have indeed been very nice people, well deserving of respect. Getting back to the topic of being too easy to gain belts in WKSA, my understanding is that it is much easier in many other styles. In Hapkido, one can get a black belt in 18 months. As far as difficulties of tests, I understand that it is only relatively recently that difficult tests have come to be expected. Masters in many diciplines want to see during the testing if the student has memorized the material. Endurance training is for the do-jang, not the testing arena. If people in WKSA are getting black belts who don't know the material, perhaps the instructors and school owners need to look closer at the students they are recommending for promotion. And perhaps those complaining don't know or appreiciate how far that student has come.
Be careful when making statements like that. Hapkido, unlike Kuk Sool Won, is not a single unified organization. Just because there's one Hapkido dojang that gives away belts for people with little training doesn't mean that's the norm at most Hapkido schools. Pop down to the Hapkido forum, and I'm sure most of the people there will tell you that's not the case where they train. Even in Kuk Sool Won, that time frame isn't exactly unheard of. KSWPaul got his black belt after about 24 months or so (two years). Now, as for being easier than in other styles, 3-5 years seems to be the norm for a lot of styles, especially TKD. This seems to be about the equivalent training time for Kuk Sool - but training time isn't that great of an indicator as to the amount of work that you've put in to getting your belt. Someone could spend 10 years learning nothing at all, or two years training really hard at different schools. Which one is worth more. In Brazilian Jiujutsu, not only does it take upwards of 10 years to get a black belt, but you have to actually be able to win competitions. Of course, someone with exceptional tallent and plent of time and money to train, like BJ Penn can still manage to pull it off in about three years. So the amount of time it takes someone to get his blackbelt isn't really a good indicator of how much he deserves one.
I didn't say that everyone got one in 18 months, but that it could happen. I think I read that a Hapkido first degree was possible in 18 months with extra effort beyond average, with attending a certian number of classes, higher than the average. Nor did I say that every Hapkido school was the same. We can't even say that about Kuk Sool Won, which is supposed to be all the same. And that isn't to say he doesn't deserve it. But that doesn't mean that I would be going around telling people that they could do that, either. I'm sure his master/instructor thought he did, Kuk Sa Nym agreed, and I'm not going to disagree with that. Not that I have ANY evidence one way or the other! Of all the styles I've talked to practitioners about, Brazilian Jujitsu seems the most political, and the hardest to advance in. From what I have heard, regularly, color belts are the main teachers in a school. I've heard in sumo wrestling, rank is solely a matter of winning. Don't recall what might be the minimum time frame for getting much rank. People seem to think that because one person might be a "better martial artist" than someone else, that the other person doesn't deserve a black belt.
You're kidding, right? You think BJJ is more political than KSW, or Korean arts in general? In BJJ blue belt and up is instructor rank. The point was, though, that even in BJJ, a very few exceptional people have done it in three years. Yes, but the way Hapkido is taught, the techniques taught, the amount of time it takes to get to various ranks, and even the number of belts can vary so drastically from school to school that just because it's possible to get to blackbelt in 18 months at one school doesn't even mean that another school would let you test for black belt after 18 months. What you're saying sounds like the policy of one particular school - or at best, one particular organization. And even at that, if it requires all that extra work, it doesn't mean that it's easier than getting a kuk sool black belt. Sumo rankings are more like boxing titles than Kuk Sool belts. You have to defend your rank by winning matches. You start losing and you lose you rank. I don't think there's any minimum time frame, more likely a minimum number of matches that you have to win.
Wow that does seem incredibly quick. We have some people who test early at ours because of military movements and such, but they are required to have private lessons and all sorts to get upto standard. And even then noone to my knowledge has done it in 2 years.
I heard from someone that competed this year in korea that the koreans can get a blackbelt in a year however they train everyday for about 6 hours a day or somethin like that. In answer to CJ's question about failing. Thats yet to happen and the person is not actually testing to move ranks as such just being put through their paces physically and mentally and to check they are picking up anything new they have learned to a good standard
Maybe KWS higher belt ranks are more closed mouth, and don't discuss all the difficulties in promoting to the next belt rank as my friend is, who tells me all his problems, about how hw can submit peopel who outrank him on a regular basis, and they STILL, after lots of time, training, talking among themselves, won't give him another belt. Those TKD people, they do have a hard time with organization. I'm not so sure a heirarchy like KSW is such a bad thing. It is hard to discuss TKD when there is so much politicing going on, but I've never heard anyone talk about how they can't test for a higher rank becuse of it. However, I'll grant that in listening to conversations about TKD politics, I'm listening to masters, and if listening to BJJ conversations about politics, I'm listening to color belts, so they would have a different take on things. I believe we were discussing time.
Now that you mention it, I've been told that Koreans are very war like. A master suggested to me that if Koreans could get along with each other, they would rule the world. As a people, they certainly have a fighting spirit. How many times have they been invaded? A thousand something?
I believe several people have mentioned that time on belt is only loosely related to how difficult it is to reach the next rank. It seems to me that these are related, but different. Mentioning the minimum amount of time advertised for length of time to black belt isn't the same as saying that it is EASY to do it.
Don't expect too many takers. The subject is a dead topic. The ONLY reason it was brought back up was to mention the suggestion of restriction notes on testing forms. See: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48589&page=2&pp=20 Particularly: And please move on. Thanks.
It's not a topic I discuss often because of the negative conotation that comes with getting a BB in a short time. But it happened because of a couple different things. 1) I had previous MA experience with TKD for basic striking and enough aikido to gain a beginners understanding of the principles of joint locks, throws and falling. 2) I worked extra time with my instructor in a one on one environment, and attended a lot of extra classes. I was at a university club so that was easier to do since I didn't have to pay more. 3) When I wasn't in class training, I was training a lot on my own as well (Basically at upwards of 5 days a week as an underbelt between class on personal training). 4) Lastly, I am a quick study. I wouldn't say I'm better or naturally gifted at what I do than anyone else in my club, I just learn quickly and retain what I learn really well. All of those things combined to allow me to promote as quickly as I did. My club was not a blackbelt factory by any means. No other student that I am aware of ever promoted as quickly. I just worked harder, and practiced more, because I knew I was going to be moving away soon, and I wasn't sure how close to a school I would be. I hope that clears things up.
