KSW critics?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFyE4OdaR_E"]Pettis MMA Fight - 1/27/2007 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gerN4FsQnDE"]Lyoto Machida vs Kengo Watanabe - YouTube[/ame]
Pettis looks like Pettis, Machida looks like Machida.

 

If you are making an argument, it is your obligation (as a party to the argument) to provide evidence to your position. You can concede the argument at any time, of course.

Where is the intellectual dishonesty? I see lots of logical nonsense, but I'd argue that it's mainly coming from the KSW side of the thread.

If you have a specific question that I am able to answer, I'll answer it.

I'll tell you what I see - in the first video he feels safe using flashy KSW techniques, because he knows that if it works, he gets a point and he doesn't have to worry about the vulnerable position the technique leaves him in and if it doesn't work, he doesn't have to worry about getting his face smashed in.

In the second video, he doesn't feel safe doing his flashy KSW kicks any more and relies 100% on Muay Thai and Boxing techniques. Now, since you were at pains to point out that he was a long time trainee of KSW, isn't it strange that he chooses to rely on techniques from styles that he (presumably) has much less experience with?

And I think that video is plenty long enough to show that he has largely abandoned KSW techniques.

It's only dishonest if you think I don't believe it. I 100% do believe it and I think anyone who is even remotely objective about the issue would believe it too. We have two videos of him sparring and we have an absolutely MASSIVE shift in his fighting style.

Lyoto Machida in his 2nd MMA fight - very much a karate counter puncher, just as he is today.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8zTpAFFsQQ"]Stephan Bonnar vs Lyoto Machida - YouTube[/ame]

Anthony Pettis in his fourth Pro fight - as free with the legs as you'd expect from a TKD 3rd Dan (and damn was that dominant) and I think he fights at a longer range than most Muay Thai trained fighters do, but others might disagree.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR4_K6meJ7c"]Pettis MMA Fight - 02/16/2008 - YouTube[/ame]

Compare that with Jolly, where if they hadn't announced him as a KSW fighter, I'd have assumed he was from a Muay Thai background.

 

Um, the videos you posted are plenty of evidence. Also Ashley Sanchez herself says she's studied kickboxing and MMA for a decade.

Because you can clearly see the TKD influence in his fighting style, which you can't with your KSW examples (which has already been said more than once).

 

The first video is of a 24-sec KO via punches...you get TKD from that huh?

Machida uses his BJJ and wrestling almost the entire time....did he abandon his Karate?

You're being dishonest but refuse to acknowledge it. LOL at your assertion that studying kickboxing for a decade means the same thing as abandoning 3 decades of KSW.

As for Pettis...you set up the scenario. The fact is, Pettis trains for his fights in an MMA gym almost exclusively. By your own criteria, he must have abandoned TKD.

This just leads me to believe that your original assertion that training more in an MMA gym than their home gym as evidence of abandoning a style is incorrect.

 

TBF, most of Pettis' early fights lasted about that long or less, so...

I'm starting to think you're trolling us now, either that or you just don't know what you're talking about.

Stop accusing people of dishonesty. You don't seem to understand what the word means and it makes you look silly.

Pettis uses TKD in every fight. MMA isn't a style, you know, it's a ruleset. Pettis trains in his own personal style, which is heavily influenced by TKD within an MMA gym, just as Machida trains in his personal style, which is heavily influenced by Karate, just as Jolly trains in his own personal style which doesn't appear to have anything to do with KSW.

Where did he say that? You're the only person I've seen say such a thing in this thread.

 

No, studying kickboxing for a decade and using it to the almost complete exclusion of KSW is abandoning KSW

 

See there...thats more dishonesty from you. Search this entire thread. Go for it. Point out what my position was and what exactly I needed to provide evidence for. Are you mistakenly attributing someone else's claims to be mine? Did you create a strawman?

Really? You think any remotely objective person would conclude the athlete abandoned KSW entirely after only watching his very first fight?

You don't think anyone else has a "lets watch and see and hold off judgement until we see more fights and evidence" attitude? This small sample size does it for you huh?

Now who is talking "logical nonsense?" [your words, not mine]

Talk about tbi...

 

Well you could start by answering my question?

 

whine, whine, whine

I think anyone who knows anything about MMA would look at that fight and say that he was using strikes from the Muay Thai and Boxing playbook.

You're dodging the question I asked (and not for the first time), do you not think it is strange that someone who has had a lifetime of KSW would choose instead to use pure Muay Thai?

Don't joke about brain injuries. They're not funny. I realise that in your chosen style, you don't have to worry about them, but for the rest of us who have suffered them and seen others suffer them, they're not a laughing matter.

 

This was the video that was posted of Machida's 1st fight:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gerN4FsQnDE#t=545[/ame]

You honestly don't see the BJJ and wrestling in that? We're comparing apples to apples. 1st fight versus 1st fight. You continue to be dishonest and try to compare Jolly's 1st fight Machida's 4th.

If you can't see that Machida is using his BJJ and wrestling in this video above and think it is pure Karate....you're the one trolling here.

 

You just troll. FYI, I didn't dodge your question, I answered it in post 580.

Why don't you answer mine instead of dodging it.

 

Machida is a black belt in BJJ and has extensively studied Sumo. As Karate has a very limited grappling repertoire that's orientated towards clinch striking, what's the issue? He hasn't supplanted his Karate, he's plugged the gaps, which we've already discussed is all fine. His standup is however straightup Karate. If he was doing Muay Thai then maybe you'd have a point, but he's not.

 

So anyway, how about we move away from discussing KSW practitioners you've not trained with, and answer my question about training?

 

Are you actually trying to argue that because Machida used BJJ on the ground instead of Karate (which doesn't have any groundwork), it's the same thing?

Also - he uses an ushiro geri at 1:21 - that's a Karate technique.

I posted his second fight because it shows that when stood up, Machida uses Karate techniques. His first fight, as you have so expertly pointed out, took place primarily on the ground and since Karate is a stand up style, it didn't seem particularly relevant to the discussion. But apparently, that makes me a liar and/or a person suffering a head injury.

I'm not even sure why I'm still engaging in this thread. I'm starting to think that it's because I find you so toxic that I can't bear to step away for fear you take my silence to be a form of concession when really, I've gone over to 4Chan to engage with some more mature discussions.

 

Really?

 

LOL...now you're skirting the issue. Is that video a good example of Machida Karate or not? Why didnt he keep it standing? Why does he continue to go for the takedown? Is he not comfortable with his Karate?

Personally, I think he is perfectly fine with his karate but chose to make it a BJJ/wrestling battle precisely due to game-planning I mentioned in post 580.

Perhaps the problem is that you don't know what KSW looks like full contact. You saw folkstyle wrestling and dismissed it as not KSW without realizing the ssireum component in KSW. Are you mistakening the MT stance with Ahp chagi stance in KSW?

 

You've been proven wrong and now notice that you werent comparing apples to apples so you need to maintain your attitude.

Keep spewing rudeness until you feel better if you need to. I'm a big girl, I can handle it.

 

Sorry, could you repeat your question or point out the post so I can look at context.

 

I'm not skirting the issue, you're yet again making up new frames of reference. Is it a good example of Karate in MMA? No. Is the standup clearly identifiable as Karate? Yes. Why didn't he keep it standing? Who knows. He went where the fight took him. Game planning is fine, however if your style contains both striking and standing grappling and what you use in those phases is not from that style, it raises questions about whether you're representing that style.
No, I've explained to you twice what folkstyle wrestling is, it is most definitely not in KSW and is very different from Ssireum (which also likely isn't in KSW, the supposed "tribal folk wrestling" in KSW is likely from Judo flavoured Hapkido). I know what an Ap Chagi stance looks like, I'm a TKD blackbelt, it's not just the feet, it's the very nature of the movement, and definitely the mechanics of the techniques.

Hasn't that been what most of this thread has been about? If full contact KSW looks like Muay Thai and folkstyle, and self defence situations are by their necessity full contact affairs, why does KSW training not look like Muay Thai and folkstyle wrestling?

 

I agree. Ks sucks.. can we close this now?