KS family tree

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by hwarang cl, Aug 10, 2007.

  1. CriticalDog

    CriticalDog Valued Member

    I know that K.C. McClane was a student at former SBN Jeff Lukers school, though I am unsure if she was his student, or just trained there. She was a KSN when I was first active.

    She left there and founded her own school in the mid-late 90's after achieving her 3rd degree, if memory serves.

    I'm sure these days she's most likely a student of SJS, of course.
  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I think that K.C. (and her daughter, Kim) ought to change the spelling of their last name to the way CD has spelt it. That way, they could go around and say, " Yippee ki-yay, MF!" and get away with it. :jester:
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2010
  3. CriticalDog

    CriticalDog Valued Member

    D'oh! that's what I get for typing right at the end of my shift. lol

    Though personally, they can spell it however they want, I'm not going to mess with either of them.
  4. kjnphil

    kjnphil Valued Member

    WKSA UK Masters' and teachers'

    John Ives, Mok Yang Kim-In Hyuk Suh
    Philip Holmes, Mok Yang Kim-In Hyuk Suh
    Martin Ducker, Philip Holmes
    David Williams, Philip Holmes
    Steven Whiting, Philip Holmes
    Steven Isaccson, Mok Yang Kim-Larry White
    Donald McCondach, Mok Yang Kim
    Philip Hinchliffe, Philip Holmes
    John Gravenall, Philip Holmes
    Michael Gooderham, Philip Holmes
    Allison Ducker, Philip Holmes
    Darren Hart, Steven Isaacson
    Di Houldsworth, John Ives
    David Gedge, John Ives
    Paul Taylor, Steven Isaacson
  5. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Amongst active Masters listed in the Tree...it seems KJN Gause's student overtook him. I understand if the teacher retires/separates and the student eventually earns higher rank later on...but how often does it happen where both the teacher and student are still active and the student overtakes the teacher in rank?
  6. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    I cannot see how/why this would happen, especially when the "teacher" is still active with the same instructor...I suspect $ may have a hand to play.
  7. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    That could be, OTL, but my money is on trying to teach him a lesson for acting like the opposite end of a horse's head. :evil: :jester:
  8. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    That also crossed my mind just the same KJN, but seeing as I have not met the man in person I dont judge....But if the online presence is anything like real life, then :rolleyes:

    What I can deduce is that he is a "true blue" IHS loyalist (nothing wrong with that), and I would have thought that over the course of many years that the type of undying loyalty he exudes might be rewarded.

    Neither here nor there I guess, and its pure speculation none the less....Just rather curious :cool:
  9. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I don't know. KJN Gause has a long history dating back to the transitioning of WKSA HQ from Korea to the US. He has mentioned before that Ken Duncan and Barry Harmon were the only 2 Americans with greater time with IHS. Thus, while originally "classmates" (or not many years apart) the disparity in rank now has become broad. 5th, 6th and 9th respectively which can translate to over a decade or two (going from 5th to 9th in WKSA and not through self promotion).

    This tells me that KJN Gause, like him or not, pass him over or not....he is no rank-chaser and he remains loyal. Many men would have left long ago and possibly even started their own KS organization after such slights.
  10. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Which is odd in and of itself, as I understand that Ken Duncan KJN is not even training with IHS, or operating a WKSA school and has still been elevated in rank...Hell, he has even founded his own system (Open Palm System) and is teaching outside of WKSA with and using a non-WKSA title...

    I'll agree with that....
  11. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Have things changed recently? Wasn't this system founded in the late 80s/early 90s BEFORE the lawsuits, federal registration and before many of the splintering of WKSA Masters?

    IIRC, KJN Duncan handed this art off to Terry Ryan and all the schools are Terry Ryans. Are you saying KJN Duncan is back in the fold with this group and is thus operating his own group? What has changed since 1997?

    I could be wrong but the website only mentions KJN Duncan as the founder but does not list him teaching it at all. This could explain that when KJN Duncan found out IHS didn't want a splinter group, KJN Duncan could have handed over the art to one of his students and he, himself, probably returned to the WKSA fold. To me the OPSMA is simply referencing KJN Duncan for lineage purposes...which pre-dates much of the splintering.

    That being said, if operating a school and actively teaching and participating in tournaments were some of the things the WKSA looked at for promotion...the outlier is not KJN Duncan...meaning if KJN Duncan owned/operated/participated at the same level as Barry Harmon...then their ranks would probably be the same (or closer) today. OTOH, KJN Gause does own/operate a school and has been active and has the years and the "getting in at the ground level" so his rank is more of the outlier.

    That is why I find it a bit odd that the student now outranks the teacher while both active.
  12. Demdike

    Demdike Banned Banned

    Pure conjecture here, but I suspect Gene Gauses's involvement on these two web pages don't help him much

    Being described as a "disciple" of a Kung Fu master must cut raw nerve somewhere at WKSA surely?
    And in addition seemingly instructing as well? Of course the web site could be wrong


    Instructor: Gene Gause
    School: G and K Martial Art
    18547 Soledad Canyon Rd.
    Canyon County, CA 91351
    Tel: 661-298-2780
    Comments: Disciple of Willy Lin. Trained by Willy Lin"
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2010
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I can assure you that his online persona is not much different from the way he acts in real life, and why I ventured onto such a precarious limb just for the sake of a laff. No one deserves to be made the butt of a joke when not even present to put forth their own POV.

    So consider that an apology, Gene. :bow1:

    As for the speculation about one of his students *passing him up*, all I can surmise is that TIG is VERY MUCH a factor in the way that upper ranks work within WKSA. So if his student was active during a phase while Gene wasn't, it could easily explain the leap-frogging of rank. :dunno:
  14. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    If that is the case, I have a serious question. Is it skill and time in grade, or being a good boy that should earn one rank? Thoughts anyone?
  15. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Yeah, I thought that to be a real possibility. But, as it turns out, the student actually had a period of inactive status. Which leads back to square one.

    Strange are those family trees that do not fork appropriately!

    Actually, an examination of the timeline supports the notion that the WKSA has been fairly consistent. The USPTO registration dates tell me that a proverbial "line in the sand" was drawn in the early 1990s. Indeed, many of the the splinter groups were formed after this date.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2010
  16. Demdike

    Demdike Banned Banned

    I think you've missed my point
    If you believe the www.linkungfu.com site, Gene Guase still appears to be an active T'ien Shan P'ai instructor - which I would have thought would be an issue given the cross-training edict
  17. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I think there is some misrepresentation going on. IIRC, KJN Gause started training in KungFu under Lin several years before he even heard of KS. Initially, it can be argued that he was actually a KF guy who cross-trained in KS and not the other way around!

    So my point still stands: does pre-dating a policy allow for exceptions to the rule? Can policy be back-dated such that even arts learned prior to KS have to be discarded? IMO, there needs to be a point in time where the WKSA gave an opinion. That point is the "line in the sand" timeframe I suggested before.

    As a cross-training person myself, even I don't think KJN Gause falls into that category...as his tour in KF is actually longer than his tour in KS....albeit less commercial.
  18. Demdike

    Demdike Banned Banned

    OK VM, let me see if I understand this

    Assuming that website is correct and Gause IS still a practicing Kung Fu instructor, then the WKSA tolerates that because his involvement with Kung Fu was prior to his joining Kuk Sool? Is that your point?

    OK a few things come out of this
    One is that while WKSA can't/won't stop his Kung Fu activities they could certainly show disfavour by not promoting him. Could explain his relative failure to promote.
    Next is do you think theres some kind of quid-pro-quo going on, where they tolerate the Kung Fu as long as he acts as Witchfinder General on behalf of WKSA?
    Are there any other masters / instructors within WKSA who are allowed to carry on OPENLY teaching other MA skills and traditions?
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2010
  19. MasterDunchok

    MasterDunchok Valued Member

    lol Witchfinder General...
  20. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I am by no means an official spokesperson for WKSA, but I am somewhat familiar with a few of their policies, so allow me to try and explain it for you, Demdike. You are correct in your original assumption that if Mr. Gause is indeed still an active instructor for TSP kungfu, that also letting him run a current franchised KSW school is equivalent to the proverbial *fishy business* located in Denmark. FWIW, the most common crossover BB in KSW probably comes from TKD. And while it's not uncommon to hear the occasional, "I'm only a first degree BB in KSW but I have a 2nd degree BB in TKD" the WKSA highly recommends that one should forget about any MA rank or titles earned prior to studying KSW, provided one is *serious* about learning what KSW has to offer.

    Trying to earn rank in another MA (even a sport-style MA) after achieving BB rank in KSW, is grounds for dismissal. So it's unlikely that if you're currently active in another MA and it's somehow made known to the "powers that be" which dictate these ridiculous non-crosstraining rules, that any such activities are bound to have repercussions of one kind or another.

    So you may be correct in assuming that what would get anyone else kicked out was overlooked due to his early involvement, and that it's possible Gene was given special compensation and merely held back a promotion or two as a reprimand (and this would also explain his adamant POV regarding WKSA which he has recently expressed here on MAP).

    It's been suggested that he was merely invited to attend some sort of ceremonial gathering, in trying to explain his participation in the event recounted on the website you referenced. However, if that's the case, it shoots a great gaping hole in the logic Gene Gause uses to disparage Soon Tae Yang (Gene has said that Yang is lying about the date he started his MA group and that the *proof* can be "seen for yourself" in a video which he possesses since Yang is wearing a KSW uniform during a demonstration which occurred after the date Yang claims he started his organization — IMO the tien shan pai garb worn by Gause is identical, meaning that Yang could've been invited to participate in the KSW demo and simply chose to wear his KSW demo uniform instead of something indicating his grandmaster status WRT a different MA group).

    The bottom line is that trying to reconcile all this rigamarole is a waste of time. I know for a fact that it was less than ten years ago when IHS started to try and make sense out of who had attained a certain rank status and who hadn't, despite having more active years of service. As VM so rightly pointed out, there will always be the occasional outlier (and this is largely due to inconsistent behaviour when awarding rank in the past).

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