Hi Sonshu, Thanks for your interest. Reference the 1948 start for KM, this is an extract from the IKMF site http://www.krav-maga.com/imi.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In 1944 Imi began training fighters in his areas of expertise: physical fitness, swimming, wrestling, use of the knife, and defenses against knife attacks. During this period, Imi trained several elite units of the Hagana and Palmach (striking force of the Hagana and forerunner of the special units of the IDF), including the Pal-Yam, as well as groups of police officers. In 1948, when the State of Israel was founded and the IDF was formed, Imi became Chief Instructor for Physical Fitness and Krav Maga at the IDF School of Combat Fitness. He served in the IDF for about 20 years, during which time he developed and refined his unique method for self-defense and hand-to-hand combat. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You will see on the IKMF site that the earliest origins of KM were instigated during WWII. Nothing like finding out whether the techniques work during H2H, when your life is the prize, is there? Regards, Pericles
I'm doing Krav at the moment and the choke defence we were taught is different: ours involves your fists meeting in the centre of the space formed by the attackers arms and snapping them hard outwards to his wrists to break the choke, while simultaneously delivering a kick to the groin/knee/shin. I'm not sure how well it would work but I like it better than that one. I prefer the one I was taught a while ago in JuJitsu though, which is similar to your Nin-Po one but involves a big step down and back first to break the choke and his balance if possible, and bringing knife hands down hard on the attacker's collar bones after. The reason I prefer it is that it puts all your bodyweight into it and is easier to remember (each movement follows fairly naturally from the other, whereas the Krav one involves coordination of simulatenous actions). On the other hand the Krav one would could be applied in a confined space, unlike the jitsu one which relies on having plenty of space behind you. I have to say though that what we are being taught does not feel like it is all part of some rigid Krav Maga syllabus, which is why it may differ from the one you saw; it feels more like a self-defence oriented mixed martial arts/JKD class (we do a fair bit of BJJ style grappling for example) with some Krav-style training (closed eyes etc), marketed under the Krav banner. The instructor is approved by the IKMF and trains with them a lot but he seems to be largely teaching his own thing. Which is fine by me as he really knows his stuff and exposes us to a a lot of good techniques. Then again, maybe all Krav is like that, I don't know.
Hi Pachanga, Trying to drive clenched fists upwards to divide the choke hold and bring up the knee into the assailant's groin at the same instant? These moves feel unbalanced. I have just tried the technique out with a couple of strong, tall lads and it resulted in me falling backwards. That happened because of the combination of forces in both arms and the knee that need to be aplied to break the hold. One of our solutions is described in my posting to Wayward Warrior on 12th October. It is to grip the wrists with hooked hands, driving the elbows down and towards the rear utilising the back muscles. This relieves pressure on the throat and secures the assailant close for the triple knee to groin strikes. Then, step forward with punches to eyes etc. and leg it. A second technique is to raise one arm straight up, take one step to the rear with the opposite foot, turning and bending the knees the body and lowering the raised arm over the wrists of the assailant to relieve their hold. Backhand fist to nose and run. All completed with speed, power and screaming blue murder. Well, I like it. As it happens, the move just described, exists in many other fighting systems. As you are in London, why not call our resident instructor Golan Levy on 07949 788601. He is just back from 10 days instructor training in Poland with IKMF chief instructor Eyal Yanilov. Golan is due back in Budapest from 4th-11th November for more of the same, so his techniques, you could say, come straight from the top. Regards, Pericles
Hi Pericles, I think you've confused the two different defences I referred to. Neither involve going up through the grab while kneeing the groin: one (the KM one) is pretty much the same as the one you describe first (attacking the wrists etc) although with a simultaneous kick to the kneed, shin or groin, depending on how your reach/distance, while the other (the Ju Jistu one) involves a big step back then striking with joined palms up through the hold, and coming back down with knife hands to the collar bones. Thanks for the info on the other possible defence, it sounds good. Thanks for suggesting your training group but where I train now is more convenient for me and I'm happy with my instructor. Cheers, Pach.
Hi Pachanga, Thanks for your reply. Less is more and the Ju Jitsu strike upwards and knife hands to the collar bones is too tough for our girls. They have just come to have fun and crush some nuts. Civilian KM is last resort action, dealing with a situation that has gone pear shaped for them and they are facing a situation for which they are probably mentally unprepared. After all, in their minds, disasters happen to other people, right? Good luck with your training. Regards, Pericles
True and thanks for point that out - the reason I posted it as it is and as the site said it was refined a lot before it as we all have it today. Not in 1948, this was early refining as such and it was only used in special units - again not as it is on the mainstay of Isreli military. The point being it has been refined and the training in 1948 was smaller and more specialised than it is today. Also the techniques pre date KM as there are few techniques that are new these days or in the 1940's. Imi was a wrestler and judoka so most of it came from there along with his boxing. A talented man no doubt. KM moves would be acceptable in UFC what would not? Also you mention Steve Benitez he is a good guy and accomplised martial artisit as I have trained with him a couple of times. Silat has some interesting ground work. One additional point you make - Self defence does not mean you need to wait to be hit as most people teach awareness and pre-emtive strikes. :Angel:
Hi Sonshu, Everthing has a small beginning. Out of an acorn, a mighty oak tree can grow. Imi's contribution was to assemble a simple series of techniques from all those he knew and teach them to raw recruits. If one of those soldiers came up against a really good Arab knife fighter, as in all things, s**t happens. KM was developed by those who discovered what worked on the battlefield and came back to pass on that knowledge. Looking back over history, the fighting man was just that. He could fight with anything. The shield wall of Saxons and Vikings. The long spears of the Greek and Macedonian phalanx. The soldiers who fought in those ways could probably destroy anyone of us, because they were extremely good at what they did. The soldiers of any era were trained to use a system that worked then. English archers were required to train on a regular basis, so their talents could be used en masse against armoured men. Killing was up close and personal. We have the luxury to discuss at length, the relative merits of one fighting system over another, on the Internet I, for one, am thankful I am unlikely to have to physically use anything I know. Fighting is all too messy and painful. The young are mostly ill disciplined and impolite. I know this to be a fact. I was young once. Therefore, I suggest, er, I suggest, er, er, er. Well, what would you suggest? :woo: :woo: :Angel: Regards, Pericles.
Amazed and Excited Wow, all I can say is that this style is simply amazing to me. Pericles said that his son (my age) is a first kyu at shotokan. Amazing, I'm 16 and a seventh kyu, also, as his son was, I am feeling somewhat limited and lacking in all areas specified in Krav Magra. Initially, I was highly intrigued by the incredible simplicity of the goals in Krav Magra: to protect oneself. Please, tell me where to go in Houston, TX, USA and I will (as we say here:"high-tail it down there). Ummm, also, is it true that the only people in Great Britian who like Texas are in Scotland? I just love to here the British talk...and the Germans, too. I once asked my Uncle David-from "Bu'mingh'm" (birmingham)- if the British have a Thanksgiving holiday, and he told me,"We have bank holidays, but no, Thanksgiving is for Americans who are glad to be out, finally." --that got a real peal of laughter and applause. "Turn that thang, up, will ya? That thingy...the thingamajig right there!...well looky there, yeppity, the fiddledeskidle, ther, ya idjit!! What, d'ye think I's born yestiddy, or sumethin'? I gots me school learnin'!!"--My Uncle Peewee
SR, You need to get your black belt in Shotokan befor you go on to another style...you will get them confused at only 7th kyu....trust me i have tried it befor..it takes time...but you are only 17...you have alot of time ahead of you to take up other styles..but you should get to know one befor you go on to try to get to know another...but that is just my oppenion...for what it is worth -Jon
Krav Maga is designed to be simple and effective like any other Military based combative, thats why people can learn a lot of things in 12 lessons. I remember going to my first class and learnt a lot in 2 hours, I do agree that there is too much hype about Krav Maga and the hype is spoiling Krav Maga. Like the hype around Kung Fu and Karate in the 70's and the Ninja craze of the 80's spawned a lot of McDojo's that diluted the ways Kung Fu, Karate and Ninjutsu were taught. I do agree that there is nothing revolutionary about the techniques of Krav Maga, but what I am learning is very useful, very effective and it works. Jenifer Lopez is doing Krav Maga no favours by over hyping it and making Krav Maga look like a "Taekwondo housewives" or a "Boxercise" class. Alot of the people who attend the Krav Maga class I go to are cross trainers, mostly Karate, Judo, Hapkido, Aikido and Taekwondo practitioners. Wheather Krav Maga is a martial art or not is purely down to personal opinion, to me, Krav Maga is more martial than art.
In regards about Krav Maga being acceptable in UFC, first of all Krav Maga isn't a sport and A LOT of Krav Maga techniques wouldn't be allowed in UFC.
Yep Jinroh, youre absolutely right. More on the history of Krav, Imi actually served in the British army during WW2 and was trained in the Fairbairn and Sykes unarmed combat style that is why there is a lot of similarity with Kapap, Krav Maga, and the Fairbairn and Sykes styles.
Hi Aiaiki I don't think Pericles meant to be derogatory to other martial arts. I studied Kempo for many many years, (5th dan) I've also studied Ju jitsu, and Aikido. I understand what he is saying regarding the mystical side of things. For instance the Samurai who are put on a pedastel by most martial artists, are for some strange reason seen a spiritual warriors that followed a strict honour code, when nothing could be further from the truth, they were anything but, they enjoyed quite a hedonistic, brutal and bloodthirsty lifestyle, which included drinking copious amounts of alcohhol, opium smoking, and indulging in homosexual practices (no I'm not gay bashing, just stating a fact).The Samurai were the nobility and they let everyone know it, businessmen and tradesmen were seen by the warrior class as nothing more than parasites and anyone below them were seen as the dirt in which the parasites live, beheadings in the streets were a common occurrance if some poor trader or peasant offended the Samurai. Then there was the re-emergence of Budo during the second world war used as a tool to brainwash Japanese soldeirs into performing terrible act of cruelty and barbarism. Since I have been training in Krav Maga, I have enjoyed the laid back atmosphere, the instructors are on first name basis with students no sirs, Sensei's or Sifus' and no bowing, or being in awe of anyone, respect is earned by instructors and students alike is not just expected becase the colour of ones belt. We are allowed to question each technique and input from the students is highly valued, and never recieved in a derogatory way. The techniques are not set in stone niether if a better way is found or a technique is improved, it's taken on board. From all the instructors I have met in Krav Maga I have recieved nothing but respect. I have met other Martial artists who like me have been training in oriental styles for years and in just 12 weeks they have learned more about self defence than in all the years studying in other arts. Saying all of that a Martial art/way or Self defence is only as good as the instructor/students in that style. There are many cowboys who are jumping on the bandwagon at the moment, and though there has been a of positive things said by many people about Krav Maga, there are many others who are blowing things out of all proportion much in the way that Kung Fu and Karate and Kickboxing was blown out of proportion many years back. We who are involved in Krav Maga do not put down other styles, in fact we are encouraged to embrace them and try them take is what useful from them and bring new tecniques to Krav Maga. that is why I also study JKD and I am also looking into combat Judo and Keysi as well
HI guys I am a 3rd Dan TKD instructor and 1st Dan Hapkido practitioner. With respect to Krav Maga (IKMF version), which I have been studying for about a year... is infinitely more effective than either of the other two arts that I have practiced and that I now realize that I have wasted years and untold money on... KM, is violent, and gets the job done, nothing fancy, just exrememly effective... IMHO JMS
Lots of styles which entered UFC and other MMA events in the early days had techniques which were not permitted - KM has many which are usable but to date there is no high ranked pro fighters I am aware off as in order to be good at MMA you need to do MMA for most people. There are other Reality Based Systems like KM that have done well in MMA in the lower levels so it should do ok but it will never be a top flight style as its focus is slightly different and it does not cover enough grappling escapes so it would run the risk of being submitted quickly. A lot of the striking is perfectly legal though apart from the usual eye gouge stuff.
There are a couple of guys I know of fighting here in the US (not UFC level but that kind of competition), who are KM practitioners/instructors. But, with the "ring" ruleset, you've in most cases removed the things that are unique to KM, so basically they're just good fighters. Krav's strikes are not particularly unique and, if anything, it's probably a little weak on the ground (for sport, please don't now come back at me talking about how KM is good on the ground - I'm not saying it's not, just not enough to be as strong in a competitive arena). But to many people's points, the strengths of KM are not primarily vested in the fight-moves-subset that you're forced into for a competitive event. cheers
He did? That's the first I've heard of Imi serving in the British Army. I'm curious where you heard that ... ? I don't claim to be an expert on Imi - far from it - or even Krav Maga. However, I'm currently completing a KM course in Israel under one of Imi's first generation of instructors. I've met several Krav Maga people out here who trained directly under Imi, but I've not heard this about Imi's background. So I'd be interested to know where you found this info. Cheers
A few questions... Sorry for being off topic - but this is the only Krav Maga thread I could see. Can I just ask a few questions? Is there a set syllabus/grading system for Krav Maga? How quickly do you grade? (i'm asking for a friend who wants to be a stuntman, and needs to gain a brown belt (or equivalent) in a martial art to count as one of his "disciplines". apparently he has heard Krav Maga has a short syllabus so you can achieve a high grade relatively quickly - personnally i'm not so sure.)
