Krav Maga

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Pericles, Sep 9, 2004.

  1. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    I've been to a seminar with Rune Lind (Rune Lind, serves as Director of the International Krav Maga Federation - Norway and has the highest Expert level in the country.) and I must say that I like the attitude and the techniques of Krav Maga. It falls right into my self defence philosophy "I'm going to be able to walk there on my own feet, and I'm going to be able to walk home again on my own feet - whatever happens in between is just going to happen." I feel I can achieve this with KM - but unfortunately there is no club where I live. Thank God for FMA ;)
     
  2. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Krav Maga is a great system of self-defense, and is what I am currently studying (in addition to BJJ). As someone said earlier, Krav Maga builds upon existing experience, and allows a lot of freedom with techniques and reactions. I.E. I generally react with open hands, as opposed to fists. In the other styles I studied, this was wrong. However, in Krav Maga, so long as I do SOMETHING, then everything is ok! Also, the sensation of driving home covered in welts, bruises, and scrapes is a great feeling.

    May you achieve
    Satori
     
  3. Jericho UK

    Jericho UK New Member

    Just to let you know, i had my first lesson last night.
    Admittedly ive not done any training of any kind for years, i was abosultely knackered after the first hour. Seriously, i almost packed in and went home!

    I enjoyed the lesson though, and was straight away shown how to defend knife attacks, counter attacking etc etc, and alreafy feel the benefit.

    Like Satori above, returning home with my arms all bruised up is a great feeling, because it shows ive been working.

    Cheers for the feedback.
     
  4. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi Jericho & Satori,

    Delighted to have details of your experiences of Krav Maga. The reason for open hands is that the arm muscles are relaxed and so move more quickly in defence. We practice thus: the victim stands between and slightly back from two assailants who face the victim. Arm blows are directed lightly towards the head and shoulders of the victim who blocks quickly with either forearm, but always starting with both hands loosely curled and placed just under the chin. Start slow in turns and speed up with dual attacks. This ready position protects the torso with the elbows and the hands are placed in what appears to be a non-threatening posture, however the hands are in a better starting place for self protection. This goes on until the victim cannot move the arms.

    As for the bruises, we take a pragmatic view that arm and hand protection enables the student to train longer and learn more in each session. Conditioning comes later if required. Most of our people come to us for 24 to 32 hours of instruction, which is very helpful to them. All they want is situational awareness and to experience ways to overcome panic and be more assertive in their daily lives.

    A few get the bug and do not mind the hardening process, because they enjoy H2H. These people are mostly young athletes like my son of 16. He was 1st Kyu in Shotokan by 13, tried Aikido a few times, but when he started Krav Maga a year ago, he progressed very quickly. This is because the techniques are instinctive and are taught at a rate to match assimilation. He had the basics in 6 hours and now assists.

    He then had private tuition to learn military Krav Maga http://www.isayeret.com/overview/kravmaga.htm and will be travelling to the Wingate Centre next year for instructor and firearms training. What is interesting is that his ability and knowledge has given him a calmness in the face of peer group irritation. He has a Gilera 50 DNA for personal transport and attending 6th Form college. He was sitting astride it outside the college talking with friends and the engine ticking over. He was approached by an acquaintance with an unsavory reputation who had been excluded the year before and being unemployable, he would hang round the college entrance at end of lectures. This clown simply revved the engine and the Gilera took off and crashed.

    My son walked to his machine and hauled it up. It was not damaged, so without a word he approached the laughing yob, offered his helmet as a distraction and arm locked the yob at full stretch, bending him at the waist which presented the face for a good kicking. My son brought his right foot up at speed and stopped just before contact. He then explained the consequences of not leaving the scene and applied a little force into the lock as a warning before release. And that was that. I learned all this some time later from one of my son's friends, whom is now learning Krav Maga.

    I would recommend arm protection in the early stages because pain can limit progress. On a daily basis, take some time to visualise the moves, because some techniques are hidden like stripping a knife from an assailant's hand. If you can, buy the Krav Maga book by Imi Sde-Or and Eyal Yanilov from Amazon. It is the best book so far.

    Regards,

    Pericles
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2004
  5. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Pericles,

    Thank you for the feedback! No offense, but you kind of sound like a spokesman for "Krav Maga International" :p. No worries, I'm hooked on Krav Maga too, and I talk about it non-stop to my fiance and friends. I've trained for the last month or so steadily, and I have the bruises to prove it.

    As for the open-hands vs. close-hands, here is my reasoning: During my training in Shaolin Chu'an Fa and ****o-Ryu Karate, I found out that the "Fist" is not necessarily the most effective weapon in self-defense. A fist must be clenched VERY tightly in order to minimize the damage-reducing "collapse" of the fingers. However, clenching a fist very tightly reduces speed and impact, so a technique of "whipping", or relaxed-delivery clenched-impact striking must be practiced in order to punch effectively.

    However, in the few situations that I have been in, I reacted with a sloppy, ill-performed punch that damn near broke my hand. So, to compensate, I have trained almost exclusively with open hands. Besides, Shaolin Chu'an Fa used a lot of open hand palm heels and "chops" (Shuto in Karate), while the military drilled the "eye gouge" into my dense skull. Also, an open hand can grab, parry, strike, rake, gouge, pass, redirect, etc... while a fist can only strike.

    Also, no worries on the forearm damage. Shaolin Chu'an Fa "Iron Tree" training and Marine Corps "Body Hardening" basically destroyed the pain receptors in my forearms. During one training incident, my finger broke, but I didn't find out until I tried to change clothes about an hour later!

    I find it fascinating that your son is allowed to participate in such training at the age of 16. Do you have to pay for it, or is he on some type of "scholarship"? As a veteran college student, I struggle to make the $55 a month tuition, let alone extensive, world-hopping training.

    Also, visualizing the movements/techniques before hand does help a lot. I practiced visualization intensely while I studied my earlier styles. Now, however, I've found that the more I practice rigid defenses, the less fluid my responses are. Instead, I drill basic techniques, then allow muscle memory to kick in during defense scenarios. That way, I don't "lock in" to certain movements in a real situation.

    I'm sorry to hear about your son's motorcycle. I would have been very upset had I been in his place. However, after I read that statement, I began to worry greatly for your son's safety. That laughing moron could have had a gun, and a threatened moron is a dangerous moron. In addition, by answering the moronic gesture with an act of violence, your son could have created an enemy out of a nominally annoying person. With a bruised ego, the "friend" turned "enemy" could return with a knife or other weapon in order to "regain his ego". While I do not doubt that your son can take care of himself, I'm sure you wouldn't want to even take the chance. Please do not take my words as a criticism, but a good natured concern.

    I definately should look into the book you mentioned, since over here in the States I'm learning second hand, instead of directly from the source. I must say that I am INCREDIBLY envious of the opportunity you and your son have with such amazing instructors. Not to say that other instructors don't have merit, but most instructors take an "instructor" course in Krav Maga in order to add it to their schedule, as opposed to directly focusing on the Israeli defense system.

    I look forward to reading further posts from you!

    May you achieve
    Satori
     
  6. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi Satori,

    Curious that you would think I am a spokesman for "KM international". Not quite, but I shall take it as a compliment. Here is some background. There are two organisations based in Israel. The http://www.israelikrav.com/contactus.html of the IKMA might be useful to you.

    Then there is the IKMF. In fact, I have met Eyal Yanilov, the Chief Instructor of the IKMF http://www.krav-maga.com/ on a number of occasions here in the UK. Golan Levy, our resident instructor, is flying to Poland this morning to join Eyal and other KM instructors from Israel for the 10 day Part 11 instructor training course.

    Eyal has been very proactive in promotiong KM around the globe. http://www.sdtactics.com.au/ is in Oz and another US organisation, independent yet linked to IKMF is http://www.kravmaga.com/

    Here in the UK, Maccabi http://www.kravmaga.org.uk/index.htm in Manchester instructs only within the Jewish community. They are IKMA affiliated. Here in Hendon, NW London, Golans's students are from all walks of life. The training venue is http://eastweststudios.com/ where Steve Benitez and John Silmon specialise in Silat and very good they are.

    Thank you for your concerns about my son. It can be dangerous out there, but it will be less than in the US. The corollary to the story could be that if my son had not nipped the trouble in the bud straight away, then the bully could have escalated his offensive. Sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do. This was last July and the clown has not returned. Thanks to my son's actions he has 10 friends taking informal instruction from him in simple scrapping. Three or four on to one for the learning curve. As for the military orientated training, it just happened. When you ask questions, if the knowledge is to be used responsibly, then it is given. Having some ability to cause grievious bodily harm carries enormous responsibility. There is no freedom without responsibilty.

    Yes, we are lucky to have our instructors. Golan Levy was born in Israel, has dual French/Israeli nationality. He served as an officer in the Golany Brigade of the IDF from 1989 to 1993. Leaving the IDF, Golan then saw service with the National Israeli Police in Haifa, both as a detective in the drugs department and being fluent in Arabic, working covertly in Lebanon, the West Bank and the north of Israel. Later his duties included being a body guard to Eli Yishay, a Member of the Israeli Knesset.
    Throughout these years he received much extra Krav Maga training from Head Instructor Eyal Yanilov and Expert Instructor Tamir Gilad of the International Krav Maga Federation {IKMF}. After recovering from injuries sustained in a terror bombing Golan was sent on security duties in Prague and Antwerp on behalf of the Israeli Government. In 2003, Golan arrived in London and began to teach Krav Maga at various venues in London. Since the beginning of this year he has based himself at East West Studios in Hendon Central. Being Israeli and with his background in Special Forces and as an undercover National Police officer, Golan brings a much tougher mindset to the challenge of improving personal security within the community.

    Overseas Contact:
    Tamir Gilad is 34 and was born in Israel. He is 3rd Dan Krav Maga and works as a firearms instructor with Unit YAMAM {counter-terrorism} of the IDF as well as other security groups {INTEL SECURITY GROUP & ZIM LTD} within Israel. He served in the IDF for 3 years in a combat unit. Before this he trained in many Martial Arts including Muay Thai with current Israeli champion Kaunshinsky. Starting in 1987, Tamir trained in Krav Maga with IKMF 8th Dan Eyal Yanilov and 6th Dan Expert Instructor Gabi Noah. Tamir has taught Krav Maga in Amsterdam and in the U.K.

    You will find much to help you in the book. You are right that some KM instructors in the US may be less than expert. When Tamir was over here during the summer we videoed him and Golan demonstrating techniques on one another and even one or two on me. The intention is to produce a limited run of CDs for our people. It is taking more time than we first thought, because we find the shots so embarrassing to watch.
    Still, we are most of the way there and barring not laughing ourselves to death during the editing, we could have something useful. We concentrated on simple things.

    That's about it for now. :love: :eek: :D

    Pericles
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2004
  7. Jericho UK

    Jericho UK New Member

    Preicles- ive juist started lessons with Tony Bradley.

    Have you ever met him, or know of his classes?

    Just wondering if you had any thoughts on him, thats all.
     
  8. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    FYI, this thread was moved out of self defense and into "styles > other" as it's a style discussion.

    - Matt
     
  9. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi Jerico,

    I think I might know him by sight. Tony Bradley attended Eyal's last seminar in the UK, held during the summer at Uni of Hertfordshire in Hatfield. Eyal agreed to let Golan video the sessions and Tony introduced himself on camera. Tony also hosts seminars by other top flight Israeli instructors. Amnon Darsa visited Tony early September, so I think you should be in good hands. The IKMF is strict about whom they affiliate with.

    By the way, Golan flew to Poland yesterday for Eyal's 10 day Part II instructor training course to be held in Lodz. Apart from some of the other leading IKMF instructors, I think Tamir will be there as well. We got a good deal on the flights, 1p each way with Wizz Air. Only had to pay the airport taxes. I am tempted to visit for a couple of days at those prices, if I can spare the time. Maybe Budapest in November. That is Golan's Part III nemesis. I think survive that and you survive anything. We shall see.

    Regards,

    Pericles
     
  10. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi David,

    Nice to get your message you are on line.

    I posted the details you requested. Perhaps we shall meet at EWS soon.

    Bruises you say? I wish it were just that. I had an umbilical hernia repaired about 3-4 months ago and all seemed until a week ago. Maybe the mesh has moved a bit. It feels less stable at the moment. I am also waiting for the results of x rays of my ankles. 20 years ago I did lots of wind surfing and would stand around in wet boots for hours. A friend remarked that I would get arthritis. "Impossible" quoth I. "Ouch" do I now say.

    I don't think it is arthritis. I have very severely sprained both ankles at different times and it seems like the ligaments are so stretched that the bones move around and get nipped and crunched as I walk. It really limits movement especially in KM, however it is possible that the ligaments can be surgically tightened and solve the problem. I do hope so as 61 is not old.

    Regards,

    Pericles
     
  11. WaywardWarrior

    WaywardWarrior Valued Member

    I had never heard of Krav maga before but recently saw something on TV about it. I'm sure it's as effective as any art, but I found problems with a few of the techniques that were being demonstrated on TV. Of course - all of my experience is limited to just this so I thought I'd ask the opinions of others here... :)

    It looked to me like Krav maga was based on speed and power to "surprise" an opponent who felt like they had an "upper hand" in some way. They were recommending it, on this particular show, as a great self-defense system for women against rapists and muggers. I guess, thats where I begain to see a problem based on the techniques I saw (and yes, I know what I saw was very limited).

    For example... In one demonstration, a large man had approached a small framed girl from the front and had grasped her with both hands outstretched in a choke hold. The technique this girl was taught was to circle her arms/hands from their position down at her sides upwards (as if doing a lateral raise) and bringing them downward sharply on top of the attackers forearms while continuing the circling motion to push them outward and break the grasp around her throat... From there a series of punches and kicks took down the would be assialant. Would that really work? I don't think it would. here's my reasoning... When the attackers arms are locked in a choke hold, those arms are going to be quite tensed and a lot of his force is going to be applied to them. I can't believe a small framed girl would have the strenght to "knock" these arms away from her throat through this motion. Let alone, I doubt she'd have the power to cause much effect just driving her arms down on top of his. Forget about then trying to push them outward. Fro one, I doubt she could have weakened his grip sufficently at this point to release herself, then, trying to continue the circling movement and push his arms outward??? Try that movement, it's awkward. If she isn't as strong as him, then I seriously doubt the technique would be effective. Meanwhile, her air supply is getting choked out and she loses even more precious time.

    I've studied many arts. For this example, I'm going to compare a Ninpo technique... In Ninpo, the girl would simply lift her arms straight up over her head, going between the strangling arms of the assaliant. Her arms going through his would force them apart and leverage would complete the break of the grasp around her neck... not power. I see this as a far better technique for this situation.

    Now, again, I'm not trying to say Krav maga isn't any good. I'm sure it is for those who have trained in it for sometime. But I'm wondering if it is an art based more on power and force then simple physics and learning to use your opponents motion against them. I would think the latter to be far better in a self defense situation...
     
  12. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi Wayward Warrior,

    In facing the stranglehold you describe, it is doubtful that the defence technique demonstrated on TV would work successfully. As you will be aware, the throat below the Adam's apple is extremely vulnerable and two thumbs placed in that spot and squeezing hard will cut off the air supply almost immediately. Once a slightly built victim is gripped in this way by strong hands, there are fewer than 2 seconds to resist. This is a very dangerous situation and the victim is most probably frozen with fear. At that stage I think there is no way back.

    A successful defence has to start by recognising the intended assault. Unfortunately, that can be almost the most difficult part of the defence technique, anticipating the attack. We emphasise at all times the necessity to be aware of what is going on all around at all times. This situational awareness is vitally important. For example, muggers wait for likely victims. They look for easy prey and set up the ambush on their terms. Just like big cats going after antelope or other animals. They hunt and so do muggers. So, the victim has walked into the trap.

    Let us suppose that on this occasion the girl sees the hands reaching for her throat. She drops her chin to briefly fend off the hands if she can. Then as you described , the girl grabs the wrists with fingernails extended to dig in and with her elbows close to her body, uses her back muscles to pull the attacker's hands from her throat. This movement will lock the assailant closely so that the girl's knee can attack the groin hard and fast, 3 or times in succession. Step forward left leg, right knee up, step forward left leg, right leg up. Then run shouting "Fire, fire fire", never "Help. I am sure you get the picture. Krav Maga is about carrying the fight to the opposition.

    However, if mugger wears groin protection, this won't work. Girl is wearing very tight skirt and very high heels, this won't work. I hate to say it, s**t happens. It could even happen to me in a moment of letting my guard down. :eek: Nobody is 100% safe. :bang:

    I have tried to describe a solution. It has to be practiced over and over so that instinct and muscle memory make the defence available, without thinking. A natural reaction to attack. That is a worse case senario you described and there is about a 10% chance of success, if that. Girls should not walk alone in dark alleys late at night.

    Pericles
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2004
  13. CrimsonDemon

    CrimsonDemon Valued Member

    I heard from a friend of mine that KM is a very very intense "sport". She told me that it tests the body's limits to the degree that the trainers get punched in the stomach doing sit-ups. Though I doubt this to a statistic, but I can see where the advantage of such can come from.

    She also told me that a KM artist can get into a fight, and get pelted five times with a 9mm and not even flinch. Of which I seriously doubt.

    I know nothing about KM, just thought I would put my input on it.
     
  14. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Wayward Warrior/Crimson Demon,

    Thank you for replying to this discussion of Krav Maga! While I'm not an expert, perhaps I can put some questions/fears to rest.

    Let us first look at what Krav Maga ISN'T:
    -KM isn't competition point sparring.
    -KM isn't the ULTIMATE style of martial arts. There is no ULTIMATE style.
    -KM isn't a system that will make you immune to gunfire. No style can do that (except Run n Hide-itsu)
    -KM isn't designed for people with severe handicaps.
    -KM isn't designed to be exceptionally complicated.
    -KM isn't a sport.

    Let us look at what Krav Maga is:
    -KM is a quick, dirty way to defend yourself.
    -KM is designed to be quickly learned
    -KM is designed to be as simple as possible
    -KM often relies upon a very aggressive and violent demeanor
    -KM contains very few advanced concepts

    Such concepts as a "soft intercept" or "circular evasion" are probably beyond the scope of the average KM practitioner.

    As for Ninpo...I take this to mean some form of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu/Taijutsu. Considering the "ninja" were actually an ancient form of para-military guerilla mercenaries, some of the techniques, at their core, might greatly resemble Krav Maga. However, unlike traditional clan-based ninja, Krav Maga practitioners aren't trained from birth in a form of martial arts. So, to compensate, extremely simple techniques have been instituted.

    I think I had a point in there somewhere.

    May you achieve
    Satori
     
  15. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi to all,

    Yesterday, the Krav Maga session at EastWest Studios took a different direction. Golan is in Poland with Eyal Yanilov for more instructor training, so the session leaders were Andy and Soloman, who are Silat specialists. Their task was to concentrate on teaching Silat techniques that transfer to the street. Silat is an out and out battlefield art with very nasty edged weapons. We were informed that the forms we were to learn work with weapons and empty hands. And so it proved.

    Very fast hands are what Andy and Soloman have. Elbow strikes were shown to us that make the mind whirl. The feedback after the session was very, very positive, because it is always good to see other solutions. All top class martial artists of whatever culture are capable of looking after themselves in truly spectacular style. They have had years to become good.

    We have two more Silat sessions, before Golan returns. These will be very refreshing. This may seem obvious to others, but it dawned on me that in certain situations, 3 solutions can be tried in sequence, just because it is fun and you can do them.

    An example. On Saturday, I was privileged to be invited to an Aikido Dojo to meet the Sensei. I watched him for nearly an hour, training a gaggle of youngsters. Discipline and command were near perfect. So good, in fact, that when the blue belts did not announce " Nine move Jo Kata" with enough committment, all spectators, including me, were require to perform five pressups. And why not? It really got us all smiling.

    It was watching practice moves against being grabbed by the wrist that intrigued me. Just trying to pull the right arm free whilst the wrist is being held firmly by the right hand of the opponent is a low percentage move. In Krav Maga, one response is to step forward with right foot, turning the right arm to drive the elbow hard into the opponent's ribs. Your body weight applies pressure against the thumb of the hand holding your wrist allowing you to break free. A thumb strike to the opponent's eye with your left hand, doubles your chances.

    It did not work!! Turn your right hand to grip opponent's own wrist and with your left hand, lever up the opponent's right arm with power to try to throw him down. Still stuck?

    Flowing immediately into next move, pure Aikido? Raise your right arm and slide under opponent's fight armpit to get behind him breaks the hold ---Krav Maga again, this is what Tamir might do at this stage in the fight . Crouching low, he grabs through opponent's legs to the landing tackle and in a surge, upends opponent face down to the ground and Tamir finishes off with severe beating to back of opponent's head. Or he will break their neck! I am not telling you how!

    Coming back to the Silat. (Stop me if I am boring you.) We were shown a lovely defence against a punch to the head. It was a southpaw stance, right foot forward and left foot at right angle, weight evenly distributed, loose knees and shoulders. Right fist forward across body, exposing your chin and left arm pulled back a bit so bent elbow covers left side of chest. The stance is to invite the straight right punch to your chin, so you are positioned very slightly to the left of the opponent as you view him.

    This is the only difficulty I can see with this defence. These Silat guys are lighting fast. I am a slow, old chap with reactions like sponge. I am going to get it straight on the nose. However, the straight right comes. Stepping forward with your right foot to come alongside your attacker, your right arm curves left to right across your body striking the arm with speed and force deflecting the punch right and down to your side. Your right arm is straight now and is trapping opponent's arm and who is probably bending forward and facing a little towards the right. Your right leg is behind his right leg. Up comes your right arm across his throat and down he goes, tripped over your right leg. The Silat guys now kneel on their left knee with opponent's right arm bent back against the joint over their right legs. Left elbows all over the place and that is that.

    Our guys liked all that and practiced assidously for over two hours. They looked very thoughtful as they made their farewells. Later that day, I showed my son aged 16. Got it straight away didn't he! I think my back'S broken. Lucky thing he threw me on the settee. :eek: :eek: :eek:

    Regards,

    Pericles
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2004
  16. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi Crimson Demon,

    Having not been subjected to an Eyal Yanilov instructor training course I do not know whether his instructors are punched in the stomach whilst doing sit ups. What we tend to do in our training sessions are "crunches". I have seen boxers lying on their backs and having rubber medicine balls bounced on their stomachs. That'll work.

    What do you mean "pelted five times with a 9mm" please?

    Yours in anticipation, :)

    Pericles
     
  17. WaywardWarrior

    WaywardWarrior Valued Member

    Thanks for all the clarifications. Again, I only based my comments off of the brief piece I saw on TV... I didn't draw any conclusions from that... just curious.

    THis is a great thread with a lot of good content. I enjoy following it.
     
  18. Jericho UK

    Jericho UK New Member

    Does anyone know if Krav Maga has been tested in competition eg/UFC?

    Just curious.
     
  19. Pericles

    Pericles Valued Member

    Hi Jericho,

    Interesting question. It is correct to say that Krav Maga is battle tested! Israeli soldiers have been using the precursor to modern KM since 1948, when after the State of Israel was declared, Arab armies from Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon invaded. Owing to Britain having prevented heavy arms being imported, it was sten guns, rifles and ingenuity against tanks. When fighting was hand to hand, knives, axes and sharpened shovels were the order of the day.

    Somehow I do not think that the UFC would approve of that kind of lethal combat in the ring. Most KM techniques are simply designed to subdue armed opponents with what would probably be considered "foul" moves. By the way, Steve Benitez at eastweststudios.com teaches Pencak Silat. You could ask him on his forum whether Pencak Silat would work in UFC.

    Our group doesn't describe KM as self defence. That implies waiting to be attacked. That usually results in injury. We prefer to term KM as self protection, because situational awareness should alert you to the danger of assault. "Ritualised Combat" by Darren Laur on www.karate-shotokan-kata.com is worth reading, because a pre-emptive strike can save your life.

    David Reuben can tell you way more than I can about the circumstances for deciding whether to launch an early takedown. Experience, training and a "gut instinct", plus the environment and circumstances, will give you guidance about your next move.
     
  20. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook


    Dont think they were as early as 1948 using it. Also KM could be used in UFC it would do ok but there is not much special to it than other arts. It is a good reality based system thats all.
     

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