krav maga love it

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by nico77, May 7, 2016.

  1. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    Relatively simple.
    But maybe cavemen were more sophisticated than we think.
  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    This statement is at once correct and incorrect.

    When I started martial arts a punch was just a punch...
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Then he would be wrong. Not only did it not look in any way like boxing (I mean as an example of boxing it's dire) it also looks nothing like the drill (which at least has some passing resemblance).
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    And yet you show such a massive lack of insight and respect for boxing.

  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That comes across as picking a fight for the sake of it.

    I think we can all agree that the technical repertoire of boxing is small compared to many baroque and bloated systems from Japan or China. Simple seems like a fair way to describe that. Just like golf might be called simple compared to rugby because of the comparative simplicity of the rule set, even though both are very hard to master.

    Or maybe you skimmed the last few posts and didn't read Rebel Wado's comment that precipitated Remi using the term "caveman"?

    Also, you show a massive lack of insight and respect for cavemen :p
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Thanks Remi.

    You have a lot of comments coming from many directions here, so please feel free to reply to this at your leisure:

    I see that basic sweeps and throws are not taught until year 3. What technical training do students receive that might help to achieve both de-escalation and physical engagement, ie. subduing techniques, before then?
  7. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    Those are on the blue belt syllabus but people are encouraged to attend all levels of classes from the beginning or at least yellow belt onwards (three months in).
    So they would be assessed towards the end of that year but would/should have been practiced for a while.
    The logic is that , as Simon says, hitting is not so simple. But it is still the most effective way of getting out of trouble quickly and for SD it is important to do it proficiently.

    And for control I mean restraint and moderation.
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
  8. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    See edit.
    Though it may not cover your question.
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I was particularly talking about the ability to restrain someone without injuring them.

    The cliché is the drunken uncle scenario; what do you do if an uncle takes a swing at someone at a family barbecue?
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    My use of terms like caveman martial arts applies to training philosophy, not the combat system. Specifically referring to "knowing where to hit to hurt and learning to hit as hard as you can". The premise is that this philosophy leads to the simplest form of martial arts training. For example, learn to bash the enemy's head in with a stick. Something that culturally became second nature to a caveman.

    Although schools vary, arts like Kajukenbo and CLF have roots in caveman martial arts for their self-defense training. CLF maybe even more than Kajukenbo, IME. The thing is, these arts get a lot more sophisticated and technical, and in some cases the caveman part is skipped over or lost.

    Boxing is not a caveman martial art because the training tends to be on the technical side or as in technical fighting. Boxing would be caveman martial arts if it was trained with the purpose to "hit someone where it hurts them the most and learn to hit them there as hard as you can."

    IMHO, let's not confuse:
    1) Something that is simple (not complex) innately.
    2) Something that is kept simple on purpose.
    3) Something that is not simple but through training and practice, becomes simple.

    Learning to hit someone hard and in the right place is innately simple. Hence, the caveman reference. This does not mean it comes naturally. It still needs training and practice, but the concept is easy to grasp. The execution of hurting another human and/or moving target is not simple.

    Self-defense application is kept simple on purpose. Boxing is kept simple on purpose. Why? Because "keep it simple..." works. The number of techniques is kept simple, but the concepts, however, are not simple to grasp. People still argue about what knuckles to hit with and differences between gloved and bare-knuckle. And people can easily get caught overthinking this stuff.

    With, complex stuff that gets simple over time... well there you have that extra layer of useful and yet so very not useful stuff. It is useful when it becomes simple. The many years of training to make it become simple may or may not be useful.

    My experience was different. When I started, there was only one way to punch correctly. Then I learned there were many ways to punch correctly and incorrectly. Then I learned, if you tell someone how to punch, they still have to learn it for themselves.
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Rebel Wado, I like a lot of your posts, but I have to admit- you are losing me with this "caveman" stuff. Particularly with references to CLF.

    Isn't every art's starting point learning where to hurt and how hard?

    CLF can be broken down to very simple, but can't most arts? Is that really so different? And the fullness of CLF is very complicated, with all sorts of weird things to varying and complicated punches like "phoenix eye" fists, leopard fists, etc? Yes, the punch delivery is similar, but I am just saying I don't think of CLF as a simple uncomplicated style at all.

    Yes, I am taught that if an attack is imminent, strike hard and fast to put a stop to it. But we also learn all sorts of ways to "stop the drunk uncle at the barbecue" as well.

    I can't imagine that this is very different than many other arts.

    Not to mention the concept of "cavemen" come from Neanderthals, which latest archaeological evidence is showing may have been smarter than previously thought. I remember seeing a special about how we think they hunted mammoths that was smarter than the whole caveman throwing crude spears thing.

    Now, I have been taking Nyquil the last 4 nights, so I may be missing something as my brain is foggy.
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm presuming by "caveman" you mean neolithic humans?

    Seeing as we have no idea how technical they were in their fighting systems, I think it's probably best to skip that conversation ;)

    It's not the technical considerations of what knuckle etc. that are hard to master. Even fairly encyclopaedic arts can be grasped in a relatively short amount of time in terms of technical knowledge.

    It is the somatic, visceral mastery that takes years of hard work. The timings and muscle recruitment that can only be partially grasped by the conscious mind. This kind of complexity can only be felt and intuited.
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm saying it SHOULD be the starting point, but it isn't. Some training skips the "caveman" stage. Look at most Aikido training and you won't find white belts learning how to atemi as hard as they can to a target.

    Yet there is a lot of talk about a committed attack and even the fabled one strike kill.

    CLF is different than many arts around starting points for self-defense, but is similar to Kajukenbo. It starts with "banging", hitting hard to the arms, legs, chest, stomach. For instance, a simple SD move in CLF is a hammer fist strike to the bicep followed by a back fist/forearm strike to the side of the head/jawline/neck.

    In various forms of Kenpo, such as American Kenpo, the same technique is done for speed. Done as a hammer fist to the bicep or forearm, and then a hammer fist to the jawline. A cadence sort of like, bop bop.

    In CLF, the hammer fist is a knuckle rake smashing through the arm, followed by a power forearm strike. A cadence sort of like, bammmmmmmm, booooooooom.

    Kajukenbo does both ways, depending on the situation, so I imagine either way could be used in CLF or Kenpo, but characteristically, the bammmmmm, booooooooom is caveman... where as the bop bop is modern.

    I don't mean caveman to mean dumb or in reference to Neanderthals. Caveman is a term that one of my teachers passed on to me many years ago and I kept using the term.

    He meant primal, as in "first in importance" or even "very basic and powerful". So what was first in importance to a caveman? We might not really know, but for purposes of "caveman martial arts" according to one of my teachers, the first most important was to hit hard and hit accurately (e.g., know where to hit to be effective). The NEXT was to hit repeatedly.

    In other words, when I say caveman martial arts, I mean learning the stuff that would be primal for a caveman to learn if the caveman had a martial art.

    One FMA grandmaster put it to me best after showing us several stick and knife disarms, then watching us struggle. He said, and I'll paraphrase, that what he showed us took years for him to get good at, to the point he can do it in his sleep. For us, based on our training, he will show us something else. Something we could get good at in a short amount of time with our training backgrounds.

    Instead of the fluid FMA sequences he first showed us, he had us climb the tree (limb destruction moving up to a chop to the side of the head), followed by a two-on-one grab, unbalancing and driving the point of the knife into the ground for the disarm, using the bottom of our shoe to the side of the hand/blade.

    We picked up this last sequence very quickly, given our backgrounds.

    Nothing really works consistently unless it is simple to you/me.
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  14. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Krav is the crossfit of martial arts; now the paleo.
  15. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Alright Rebel Wado, that post (#333) clarifies things a lot. Makes a lot more sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain further. :hat:
  16. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    These will be covered in classes and thematic seminars from early in training but not formally assessed until later.
  17. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Just an admin question. The OP has not been here for almost 2 weeks and only made 2 posts. The OP is not involved in the discussion and has not logged into MAP since the first days of the thread. Only made 2 posts on the first page and has not logged in since. Perhaps we scared the person off?

    Anyways, since the OP doesn't appear to be about, might the ongoing discussion be more appropriately placed in a different section of the forum than introductions?

    Just wondered.

    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I see.

    It must be variable across KM organisations, because the people I mentioned were between 1 and 2 years in, and had zero instruction on lower force outcomes.
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    There was a fairly substantial language barrier. Might have been a factor.
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Seeing as you're talking about a period of hundred of thousands of years, and people who were biologically indistinguishable from you and me, I find it hard to believe that there were not martial arts.

    The last sentence I agree with.

    I'm not sure if you're talking about complex sequences of techniques, which I do not think of as helpful to fighting efficacy, or thresholds of coordination and possibly other attributes.

    If you are trying to introduce techniques that your students cannot grasp, then you have made an error in judgement and it is bad instruction, plain and simple.

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