I would make one of those poll thingies but I don't know how anyway as i was browsing around some aiki sites i saw some kote gaeshi techniques and noticed some styles do the cross thumbs method and others do the one thumb and palm behind that thumb what do you think the pros and cons of the crossed thumbs and the pros and cons of the one thumb with the palm behind the thumb
Hmm .. good question.. thinking how I teach the technique (specific mechanics as you ask) I end up with a thumb on the back of the hand but, if I actually execute the technique at speed (for myself) I find that I have a variety of positions that my hand comes into contact with uke's. I only ever execute this techinque holding with one hand, the other is making atemi then making Tegatana across the wrist of uke as if cutting with a sword. sometimes depending on the momentum of Uke, I may alter tegatana to an open hand resting on the side of uke's hand to reinforce my kote position. Dave
We're taught palm onto thumb. Usually the lock is held in one hand while the freehand is used to atemi, when the throw is actually executed the palm of the free hand strikes the thumb and grabs. So instead of a gradual rise in pressure there is an abrupt spike, hurts real bad.
I can't picture a "crossed thumbs" method. Don't know what that means. I learned thumb of your hand at the nuckle of either the first finger or fourth finger of uke's hand. Then to finish it, press any available part of your body against your grip hand. (Well, if you have the grip strength of the Hulk, you don't need this extra support.) But the "standard" finish that I learned, the one we're supposed to do on exams, is tekatana with my free hand across uke's hand, resulting in a painful bend of his wrist. (Of course, an atemi might be a good idea first.)
All the kotegaeshi we do have one hand holding, the thumb goes on the big knuckle i the middle finger and the pinky goes in the crease of the wrist. For all of our grading techniques the other hand or fore arm is applied to the fingers of the hand being held to help turn them into the elbow. Which helps put uke on the floor. I've never heard of the crossed thumbs method eithers.
We go for the two thumbs pretty much together against the back of the hand. There are other options such as winding the forearm over the fingers, but the former is pretty much the standard we use.
try doing the two thumbs with the uke's hand is clench as a fist then do it with other with the thumb and open hand, palm as support. which would you prefer? if you already have his balance check and cut his ki you don't even need an atemi.
i think that both styles of kote gaeshi are effective however they are used under different situations. if u'r opponent attacks u with for example a reverse punch and u can get out the way and use his momentum to swing him around the apply your cut to the wrist then the one hand method works great. however if u dont the the luxury of your opponets momentum to that extent then u will use the 2 hand method and forse the technique a little more. an example of the latter would be defending a lapel grab with kote gaeshi (i preffer san kyo for this situation) or a punch where u dont have the space or the momentum to swing u'r opponent around. Judo and jujutsu use the latter method of the 2 handed grip
I generaly prefer to use kokyunage for an attack with any significant momentum. You could use the kotegaeshi movement but without holding.
By reverse kote, do you mean turning the fingers to the outside of the elbow rather than the inside? If so I'd say that was nikkyo. Maybe I'm imagining it wrong, lol.
Well what i mean if im talking about the same thing is, if your in say katate(wrist) dori, and you move out of line to the same side your grabbed and turn your grabbed hand in a big circle ie thumb out. You would end up exposing the back of there hand so if you bring your other hand up and underneath there hand you should fing your 4 fingers grabbing there thumb and your thumb at the back of the ring finger. I dont know if that makes sense or if that is what you where talking about, but In The Iwama dojo that is a reverse kote
OOOOOOOOH ok. That's just pretty much our basic kotegaeshi. We don't hold or grab the thumb though. Instead we lock at the wrist just behind the thumb by making a circle round the wrist with our thumb and pinky. The thumb then moves into position on the big knuckel when uke is in the right position. The other hand joins in to help finish off the technique.
As i said there are two basic kote the one you are describing aikiwifie seems to be the most common one ie if you are punched or grabbed say eri dori. you bring your hand over and catch the wrist with the thumb on there wedding finger. but im talking about the other hand which is for grabs were you grab from underneath. sorry if this dose not make any sense
Yeah it does (I think lol). After we cut and escape from the grab we apply the technique more or less how I described earlier.
I was taught to grab with one hand and cover the grabbing hands thumb with the flat palm of the other hand. But I've found that IF I CAN GET IT it much better to grab with one hand and then grip the uke's hand blade with your other hand which also covers the grabbing hand thumb. (hope I explained that right)
Tomikiryu generally does it the way i do as well, we however tend to cover the whole back of hand with the inside hand, then sharply perform the rotation with applicable body movement ( as uke's actions dictate ). Typically i find that uke's reactions control how i apply kotegaeshi. if he pulls his arm in i tend to do the covering method. With ukes arm at a length i tend to use both thumbs on back of hand :woo:
This is how I learned (thumb on first or fourth knuckle). Interestingly I was taught to never put my thumb against the middle knuckle as that would give uke the most leverage against the technique. I found the secret to a good kote gaeshi is to rotate uke's hand to be palm up while unbalancing him before finishing the kote gaeshi.
http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=940&cat=503 I do believe this CLEARLY demonstrates kote gaeshi in a practical "real life apllication"....mmmm kay.
