Koryu Uchinadi

Discussion in 'Karate' started by nekoashi, Sep 20, 2011.

  1. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I was speaking of those drills. They are known as "sticky hands" in other styles. There are no drills with throws/takedows, etc. My apologies for the confusion.

    R
     
  2. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I don't know him, or anyone who trains in KU. To me his value is in that his work should be forcing all karate stylists to reexamine the meaning of their art and application of its kata techniques. Like it or not, his research is real and should be looked at carefully.
     
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    He has an online association which I believe you can join for a fee to be kept updated with aspects of KU research, upcoming seminars in the UK etc.

    I respect his research, but I used to be a historian by trade and as such I don't follow things blindly and I will give direct observations where I think a trick has been missed! As I think I said in that other thread, I do use his translation of the bubishi in my own research and material.
     
  4. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Would be most interested if you think he has anything wrong. What have you learned from that book, by the way?
     
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    With reference to getting things wrong I was referring more to the model discussed in the other thread and the weaknesses in it, I recall that Mike also had a few things to say on that subject.

    As for the bubishi... it is an interesting work. A great deal of the information within is replicated in the texts of other martial artists in greater of lesser detail, for example I would not use the bubishi as my main reference work for vital point striking. What I personally find of interest is the insight it gives into the knowledge base of late 19th early 20th C Karate instructors. For me the most useful aspect has been the number of verbal and diagrammatic references to grappling, which make sense of the large number of references to grappling later removed from Funakoshi's books.
     
  6. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    The diagram thing isn't getting facts wrong. I was wondering more from a historical analysis perspective. I am not so sure I agree with all of KU's training methods or re-invention of kata. I am more interested in the historical research and perspective on the art of karate that he brings.
     
  7. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member

    I had not heard this before: References to grappling removed from Funakoshi's books? From My Life in Karate?
    Removed by who? And why?
     
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    From later editions of Karate Do Kyohan. Possibly by Funakoshi, but most likely by the technical advisors to the editors of the posthumous 1957 edition.
     
  9. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member

    What was the motivation? Do you have any sources for this?
    I'm not doubting you, just really interested.
     
  10. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member


    Would love to see the original version myself.
     
  11. gorinnosho

    gorinnosho Kendo Addict

    I train this in Toowoomba QLD, it's right on. only just started, and it's mind blowing.
    A more in-depth study of kata/Bunkai, McCarthy's interpretation of "pre-war" karate. Call it what you will, Koryu Uchinadi(KU) is an all emcompasing and very worthwile martial art style to study, for self defence or anything else.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Just a text by text comparison of my reprint of the original edition and of the 1957 edition. I wrote a short piece on it here:

    http://www.practicalkarate.co.uk/JTKGT.html

    The most commonly accepted motivation for the change was to draw a clear line between the practise of Judo and the practise of Karate. Good relations existed in the early days between Kano and Funakoshi and it is unlikely to be coincidental that in the conversion of their practice from Jutsu to Do one chose to gradually eliminate striking from the syllabus while the other reduced the emphasis on throwing. However, as I mention in the linked article, in Okinawa grappling is likely to have been an easily recognised and practised but little taught part of Karate, and this may also be a factor in the break in transmission.
     
  13. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Good read, thanks for sharing.
     
  14. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member


    Really interesting.
    I'm reminded a passage in Shoshin Nagamine's Essemnce of Okinawan Karatedo in which he casually mentions that he was training the Motobu police team in judo in 1951, after studying karate his whole life. I don't think he mentions judo before this in his book.
    It struck me as quite odd and possibly suggests more connections to karate than one would assume.

    My teachers who've visited the Nagamine Matsuyama dojo in Okinawa have returned with new interpretations of kata moves as setups for grabs and throws rather than pure strikes. My teahers said that their Okinawan hosts informed them that the original explanations of the katas were meant to hide the deeper meanings of the moves from Americans until it was felt that they were ready for them!
     
  15. Koryu Uchinadi

    Koryu Uchinadi Valued Member

    Message from Patrick McCarthy

    Hi everyone,

    I was recently in Melbourne [Australia] teaching a weekend seminar where I learned about this thread. As I don't get over here very much [apologies] I wanted to clarify a few points and respond to any subsequent queries if and where I can.

    If my post comes across as a little disjointed, it's because I'm responding based upon the order in which I am reading the thread.

    Much of what KU [Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo-jutsu/古流沖縄手拳法術] represents, and how it came to be, can be located on my website; www.koryu-uchinadi.com [shameless plug ;)]. Also, I'm enclosing a few other links that may be helpful to those interested in my journey.

    Facebook http://www.facebook.com/Koryu.Uchinadi
    Blog http://www.mccarthy-sensei.blogspot.com/
    Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/mccarthysensei
    Mobile Me http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy

    FYI, while I was certainly a friend of the late Ed Parker, and respected his contributions enormously, KU was not technically influenced by his practice. Also, concerning American Jiu-jitsu [sic]... I'm not familiar with it but wonder if it's Mike DePasquale's [sp?] art? While there's no denying that the art of self-defense has shared commonalities, I can assure you that KU has not been influenced by AJJ.

    BTW, I did study jujutsu in America... but it was not "American Jiujitsu." Prof Wally Jay [Small Circle Theory] was my principal jujutsu instructor [during the 1970/80's], he was also a dear friend [RIP] and KU most certainly reflects, in principle, some of what I learned from him, especially where our flow drills are concerned. However, the concept of flowing from one technique to another comes largely from my high-school wrestling experience, early days with Wing Chun training [i.e. sticky hands], and Arnis with the late Remy Presas, along with healthy influences from Sayama Satoru [Shoot Fighting] and Takada Nobuhiko [Pride] during the many years I lived and trained in Japan.

    It's always interesting to read how one person's opinion/impression of me/KU varies from another; certainly such a thing goes directly to knowledge, experience and preference, unless of course there's an alternative agenda. Personally speaking, someone else's opinion of me is really no business of mine :whistle: I know that me/KU & the IRKRS have many supporters worldwide and I'm very happy about that. At the same time, I also realize that there are those who don't like me/KU and or the IRKRS. Certainly, such a thing is to be expected in such a competitive industry. Either way, it has never prevented me from living my dream nor telling people what I/we stand for, or what I/we will not stand for!

    As a busy professional, with 46-years of experience, I'm pretty sure I've seen it all. At the end of the day, I work best with other like-minded people who share common goals and are able to argue an issue without disrespecting another. Paraphrasing an insightful Chinese saying, concerning knowledge and understanding, "there are many paths leading up the mountain but only one moon to be seen by those who breach its summit." I respect other professionals whose work reflects this mindset.

    While I also respect tradition, I don't believe that it was ever about blindly following someone keeping ashes in a box, but rather in continuing to seek out what the pioneers sought: i.e., keeping practices functional and continually improving ways of accomplishing the same defensive outcomes [I am not interested in the sport].

    For many years I was very passionate about the personalities, history, and the culture from where the fighting arts evolved. My elders taught me the value of mutual respect, evolution, preservation and promotion. As my studies continued and I began to read, travel and cross-train I came into contact with many other fighting arts [Chinese, Japanese/Okinawan, Korean, Filipino, SE Asian, Western, Indigenous & eclectic, etc.] and their leading authorities at the sources of origin. This broadened my cultural perspective and technical understanding greatly. Most importantly, I came to realize that at the center of this phenomenon [and irrespective of culture, race, gender & time] there were four general studies that required my full attention before moving forward:
    1. Human behaviour,
    2. Habitual acts of physical violence [HAPV],
    3. Common mechanics, and
    4. Immutable principles.

    Without regret, this where I focused my attention for many years. With a passion for Japanese warrior culture, Zen-like simplicity, kata and functional application practices, I went on to express KU through this understanding. The results work well for me and those who take the time to study under my direction.

    The Bubishi? I've always been passionate about martial arts publications and vintage books and frequently visited a bookstore in Toronto's Chinatown in my youth. Around 1973/74 I purchased the Taiwan-Chinese pirated copy of Mabuni Kenwa's 1934 Study of Seipai in which I discovered the Bubishi in it. I never truly came to recognize its significance until I started training in the early 1980's with Teruo Chinen, of Spokane, WA. It's come as no surprise to me that those Okinawans, who we now refer to as "the pioneers of Karate," thought so much of this work: Pioneers such as Itosu Ankoh, Funakoshi Gichin, Miyagi Chojun & Mabuni Kenwa, etc.

    KU flow chart diagram? The said diagram is only one of many we use which culminate important lessons for any and all who study KU. For those who do not, I can't imagine it/they mean much more than what is obvious. That it/they've been described as superfluous, or overly complicated, is simply misunderstanding what it/they represent. FWIW, I had been a college lecturer for some time here in Oz, overseeing the delivery of two-year martial art's instructor's accreditation program, where the use of such diagrams were a typical part of academia. I think the same is common in colleges all over the world. To criticize something because one either doesn't understand it, or because it's "different" from the way another teaches, is simply uninformed.

    I hope I've managed to tie up any loose ends and wish everyone the best of luck with your continued studies. :bow1:
     
  16. sbmumford

    sbmumford Valued Member

    Patrick, thanks for this. It's great to have MA scholars and innovators like yourself checking in so we can get POVs "from the horse's mouth"!
    My teacher in Matsubayashi Ryu has been touting the Bubishi (your translation) for years. I think I'll finally get off the couch and read it!

    Interesting what you say about American jiu jitsu (their spelling) having no connection to KU. I guess there's only so many techniques under the sun, so a video montage can look superficially similar.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks for the information Patrick.

    Chinen Sensei was my first karate instructor in Spokane. Fantastic teacher and martial artist.
     
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    For the record, it wasn't the use of flow charts or diagrams that was being criticised by all the people on the thread. It's not as if posters here are necessarily strangers to academia, or don't belong to other martial arts research groups.

    To be fair there were a few posters who criticised it for those reasons. As someone who is not a member of your group I don't know what other charts it sits with, so I was observing omissions from my perspective. My biggest complaint however was (and remains) with the sheer number of HAPV listed.

    Thank you for taking the time to post your views here.
     
  19. shambo5772

    shambo5772 Valued Member

    Hi List ka,

    As you will see from the previous link that JWT san conveniently reposted I previously defended the diagram and what KU stands for under my own understanding.

    I joined the IRKRS and Hanshi McCarthy from mainly a Shotokan background because I liked the versatility and variety (stand up, ground grappling, sticky hands, two person drills, Kata applications, weapons, discovering about body anatomy its weaknesses/strengths and how to use karate in the context of everyday life against violence,aggression,conflict incorporating HAPV) within the system. It works for me also because Ku provides a platform to study academically/physically while keeping traditional aspects and etequiet that are common place throughout martial arts. It doesn't get any better then having direct links to Hanshi McCarthy and being able to study what he has drawn from in his extremely knowledgeable and hands on background through years of practice and study.

    It's been a blast so far. McCarthy sensei's encouragement to me of being open minded, studying and working to be the best I can be has made me see martial arts in a different light. Everything is open to discussion which is a good thing. By debating and discussing in a positive way we all expand our knowledge and grow. As I'm inquisitive I would ask questions about styles, diagrams, origins like many other martial artists on MA forums. To me the answers become much easier when practicing the system and understanding it from the inside. I would say I couldn't make a correct judgement on something without understanding the principles and theory along with who has come up with those and why.

    Regardless of the endless questioning of Ku, Hanshi McCarthy, IRKRS etc... I can say the Ku system works. And in todays world that for me is the main question that needs to be answered. A practical system that can be used to improve mentally through study, understanding, traditional practises and training. A practical system that can be used physically against the many HAPV attacks within violent confrontation in stand up, close quarter, or if gone to the ground. A practical system that can be used to improve spiritually and physically/healthy/fitness through the practice of Kata, flow drills and variety of dynamic/static/breathing techniques within it. A practical system that holds on to the core values within the martial arts such as compassion, respect, courtesy and fortitude.

    That's what I see and experience from the inside out in the study of KU and direct teaching form Sensei McCarthy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  20. b.ryder.uk

    b.ryder.uk New Member

    I'm not sure who shambo is (is it one of the Damiens??) but I can echo the sentiment of the post you made there.

    I have been member of the IRKRS for 7 years and train KU in the UK. In addition to the martial arts interest, I had a professional interest as a full time self defence trainer to the police and as door suervisor for 5 years, and taught control and restraint to colleagues regularly. The methodology that KU uses works, and has worked for me on numerous occasions, as recently as last Thursday when restraining a guy who had just attcked his family with a knife and hammer.

    I have the diagram from which this thread began in the opening cover to my note book and it fuses the common causes and solutions to conflict, the components of a comprehensive system, in the context of Okinawan/Japanese budo culture. You can make a diagramatic representation of violent behaviour as complex or as simple as you need in order to prove a point, and draw as many perceptions and conclusions as you need or want. For me the diagram seemed to address "the problem with karate" issues and showed that karate can learn as much about fighting by looking inwards than it can from looking outwards to other arts.
     

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